Showing posts with label haditha. Show all posts
Showing posts with label haditha. Show all posts
Sunday, November 11, 2007
Violent sexism and wife beating in Islam - Part 2
Mohammad found wife beating quite alright, almost a fan you might say. Let's go to the Hadith: (read it carefully, a wife is bruised so green that she matches her clothing, but it is ok...Mohammad actually criticizes the woman in the end!). A thank you to answering-islam.org for finding it.
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by the beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.""
Notice that the believing women suffer more than the rest. They get green bruises, but the prophet is ok with it.
Saturday, November 10, 2007
Violent sexism and wife beating in Islam
Battered Saudi TV Host, Ranya Al-Baz and Abusive Husband
Posted Nov 14, 2005A glimpse into women's rights in Saudi Arabia.
As I said in an earlier post, a great way to get a Muslim woman thinking is by starting with Mohammad's pedophilia or Islam's violent sexism. Muslim's will generally deny the first (in the face of all evidence), but eventually succumb to the existence of sexism although twisting and turning with respect to the violent aspect.
General sexism
The sexism is obvious, as can be found in the Skeptics Annotated Quran's section on Women. It's quite a long list, here is a subset of really loony verses:
- A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282 ; and males are to inherit twice that of females. 4:11
- Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15 ; but the wives of Mohammad will be punished double for lewdness! 33:30
- You can't have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like). 4:24
- Don't pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched a woman lately. 4:43
- A husband can accuse his wife of adultery with only one witness. 24:6
- The wives of Mohammad are not like other women. They must not leave their houses. 33:32-33 [a little controlling, aren't we Mohammad?] ; oh, and Allah says it is lawful for Muhammad to marry any women he wants. 33:50-51
- If men must speak to Muhammad's wives they must speak from behind a curtain. And no one must ever marry one of his wives. 33:53
- The single-minded slaves of Allah will enjoy a Garden filled with lovely-eyed virgins. 37:40-48
- Allah will reward faithful Muslims after they die with "fair ones with wide, lovely eyes." 44:54
- Those in the Garden will be attended by immortal youths with wide, lovely eyes. 56:17-23
- Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31
- Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34
The last verse mentioned is responsible for some horrific domestic violence, so let's examine further with the full translation:
004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
For those doubters, I bolded the key parts. If you fear disloyalty, desertion or rebellion...beat your wives (of course after admonishing them and not sleeping with them). Now, in Yusuf Ali's version, the word "lightly" is added, but this was added for palatability not because the word is actually there. In the video at the top, you can see how "lightly" some are beaten.
In fact, the word in the Quran in 4:34 used for "beat" is "idreb". It is a conjugate of the word "daraba" which primarily means "to beat, strike, to hit" - Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, page 538.
Here is a Quranic verse in which "idreb" is used:
8:12 - ""Strike" off their heads, "strike" off the very tips of their fingers!"
Don't believe the Muslim apologists. In the next post, I'll go through what Mohammad actually thought when "revealing" the Quran.
Mohammad's pedophilia - Part 4
Other pedophilia examples
You see, Mohamed the pedophile liked the young girls: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17). Ah yes, and that is you can "thigh" an infant in many Muslim countries - thank you Mohammad:
Muhammad also had eyes for an infant girl, promising to marry her when she grows up. Ibn Ishaq places this event during the time of the Battle of Badr in 624 AD when Muhammad was roughly 54 years old. (Guillaume, pp. 310-312)
And so there is no Allah
Here's the main problem with "Mohammad was a victim of the times" excuse. Besides the fact that we demonstrated the excuse to be false (sex with 9 year olds was not customary), it also demonstrates the lack of a divine Allah. If there really were an omniscient, omnipotent being and a prophet named Mohammad, the duo would've created a religion for all times and Mohammad would've set an example for all times. A true divinely inspired prophet sets the custom not follows the custom. Mohammad's pedophilia justified pedophilia for ages and continues to justify it today. His example emboldened pedophiles in Muslim countries until this day. If Allah exists, he should be ashamed.
You see, Mohamed the pedophile liked the young girls: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17). Ah yes, and that is you can "thigh" an infant in many Muslim countries - thank you Mohammad:
Muhammad also had eyes for an infant girl, promising to marry her when she grows up. Ibn Ishaq places this event during the time of the Battle of Badr in 624 AD when Muhammad was roughly 54 years old. (Guillaume, pp. 310-312)
And so there is no Allah
Here's the main problem with "Mohammad was a victim of the times" excuse. Besides the fact that we demonstrated the excuse to be false (sex with 9 year olds was not customary), it also demonstrates the lack of a divine Allah. If there really were an omniscient, omnipotent being and a prophet named Mohammad, the duo would've created a religion for all times and Mohammad would've set an example for all times. A true divinely inspired prophet sets the custom not follows the custom. Mohammad's pedophilia justified pedophilia for ages and continues to justify it today. His example emboldened pedophiles in Muslim countries until this day. If Allah exists, he should be ashamed.
Mohammad's pedophilia - Part 3
Last typical Muslim responses to Aisha
5. It was customary to marry that young
Fact: There is no record in ancient times demonstrating that it was customary to marry as young as Aisha. Nor does any historical record show such an age disparity between a 51 year old man and his marriage to a six year old. Finally, and most importantly, it was not customary for a 54 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old (especially one that played with dolls).
Proof - let's take a look at other ancient cultures:
Ancient Greece and Rome
Around AD 530, and at least as far back as the reign of Augustus, the legal minimum age of marriage for girls was 12 and for boys 14, and Roman children of the aristocracy married youngest.
In Ancient Greece, "[t]hough the marriage of a girl to a man twenty years her elder was common, sexual relations between the very young and very old were a standard subject for mirth". However, marriage was not as early as in Rome, possibly at age 18 for girls, but also to men a decade older, but at least 25.
Middle Ages Europe
Women were marriageable right after puberty, marriage arrangements were made while they were in infancy; they were wed at the age of twelve or fourteen to men in their twenties and thirties. The arrangements were often loveless political unions, certainly abusive by contemporary standards and conducive of great gaps in learning and maturity between wives and husbands.
Ancient Jewish culture
"For Jewish women--as for women in antiquity generally--marriage was often entered into early. We do not have many inscriptions recording the age at which women were married, but the few who record it mention ages varying from 12 to 18 years. 15 was probably an average age for a girl to marry.
Footnote: See Horsley, New Documents 4 (1987)222-227, on age at marriage. He states that the few data we have seem to suggest a higher marriage age for Jewish than for pagan girls."
Ancient Egypt
...most Egyptian men were eager to follow the advice of the wisdom literature urging them to take a wife while still young so they could found a household and raise a family. Most men were married by the age of twenty to girls who might have been as young as fifteen. There was an age difference, but usually not more than two or three years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you see, you're instincts are right. It's unusual and sick to for a 54 year old man to have sex with a pre-pubescent 9 year old that is playing with dolls.
Next post...more examples of pedophilia in Islam.
5. It was customary to marry that young
Fact: There is no record in ancient times demonstrating that it was customary to marry as young as Aisha. Nor does any historical record show such an age disparity between a 51 year old man and his marriage to a six year old. Finally, and most importantly, it was not customary for a 54 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old (especially one that played with dolls).
Proof - let's take a look at other ancient cultures:
Ancient Greece and Rome
Around AD 530, and at least as far back as the reign of Augustus, the legal minimum age of marriage for girls was 12 and for boys 14, and Roman children of the aristocracy married youngest.
In Ancient Greece, "[t]hough the marriage of a girl to a man twenty years her elder was common, sexual relations between the very young and very old were a standard subject for mirth". However, marriage was not as early as in Rome, possibly at age 18 for girls, but also to men a decade older, but at least 25.
Middle Ages Europe
Women were marriageable right after puberty, marriage arrangements were made while they were in infancy; they were wed at the age of twelve or fourteen to men in their twenties and thirties. The arrangements were often loveless political unions, certainly abusive by contemporary standards and conducive of great gaps in learning and maturity between wives and husbands.
Ancient Jewish culture
"For Jewish women--as for women in antiquity generally--marriage was often entered into early. We do not have many inscriptions recording the age at which women were married, but the few who record it mention ages varying from 12 to 18 years. 15 was probably an average age for a girl to marry.
Footnote: See Horsley, New Documents 4 (1987)222-227, on age at marriage. He states that the few data we have seem to suggest a higher marriage age for Jewish than for pagan girls."
Ancient Egypt
...most Egyptian men were eager to follow the advice of the wisdom literature urging them to take a wife while still young so they could found a household and raise a family. Most men were married by the age of twenty to girls who might have been as young as fifteen. There was an age difference, but usually not more than two or three years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you see, you're instincts are right. It's unusual and sick to for a 54 year old man to have sex with a pre-pubescent 9 year old that is playing with dolls.
Next post...more examples of pedophilia in Islam.
Mohammad's pedophilia - Part 2
Common responses from Muslims on Aisha
1. Ages are wrong for any number of reasons usually that the Hadith are unreliable.
Fact: The Hadith I quoted are key to Islam and are considered part of the Sunnah accepted by all Muslims.
2. She was at puberty already
Fact: You read her own words - she was playing with dolls when she entered Mohammad's house as a bride. You can also see the narrator say that dolls were allowed only for girls before puberty
3. People matured at a faster rate in that region.
Fact: Average age for the first period is ~13 years, and it barely changes around the world.
http://www.mum.org/worldmen.jpg Also, puberty is a process taking 4 years on average, and a 9 year old wouldn't have the emotional maturity to handle it. It was rape for that reason. Mohamed should at least have waited until Aisha was done with puberty.
4. Aisha's parents agreed with her marrage
Fact: Her father objected:
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."
Next post typical objections to Muhammad's pedophile history
1. Ages are wrong for any number of reasons usually that the Hadith are unreliable.
Fact: The Hadith I quoted are key to Islam and are considered part of the Sunnah accepted by all Muslims.
2. She was at puberty already
Fact: You read her own words - she was playing with dolls when she entered Mohammad's house as a bride. You can also see the narrator say that dolls were allowed only for girls before puberty
3. People matured at a faster rate in that region.
Fact: Average age for the first period is ~13 years, and it barely changes around the world.
http://www.mum.org/worldmen.jpg Also, puberty is a process taking 4 years on average, and a 9 year old wouldn't have the emotional maturity to handle it. It was rape for that reason. Mohamed should at least have waited until Aisha was done with puberty.
4. Aisha's parents agreed with her marrage
Fact: Her father objected:
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."
Next post typical objections to Muhammad's pedophile history
Sunday, October 21, 2007
Mohammad's pedophilia
Updated:
This ended up taking a number of posts. Also, I've forgotten a Quran passage, which I have added below. This is from Sura 65 on rules for divorce. Notice below that you can divorce a woman who hasn't menstruated yet ("not had their courses"). Well, how can you divorce a prepubescent woman if you didn't marry a prepubescent woman in the first place? I think the reader can fill in the blanks.
65:4 And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.
When you read about Mohammad's own pedophilia below, you'll understand why he made sure to have the above verse "revealed" to him.
Aisha
Let's continue with Aisha. The key Hadith sections about Aisha because they are pretty clear (remember when you are reading that Mohammad was 51 when Aisha was 6):
Let's continue:
In the next post I will discuss common responses from Muslims over the issue of Aisha and why they are false
This ended up taking a number of posts. Also, I've forgotten a Quran passage, which I have added below. This is from Sura 65 on rules for divorce. Notice below that you can divorce a woman who hasn't menstruated yet ("not had their courses"). Well, how can you divorce a prepubescent woman if you didn't marry a prepubescent woman in the first place? I think the reader can fill in the blanks.
65:4 And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.
When you read about Mohammad's own pedophilia below, you'll understand why he made sure to have the above verse "revealed" to him.
Aisha
Let's continue with Aisha. The key Hadith sections about Aisha because they are pretty clear (remember when you are reading that Mohammad was 51 when Aisha was 6):
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Let's continue:
Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
And in another Hadith we read.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
So, at the age of nine when the marriage was consummated, she was still playing with dolls and not yet at puberty.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
In the next post I will discuss common responses from Muslims over the issue of Aisha and why they are false
Where to start
Culture of ignorance
Where to start in your discussion is important. Muslims do not see any flaws in their faith, so you have to understand where they could be most receptive and/or most impressed. The first filter, receptivity, is important because Muslims run from challenging discussion faster than any other group I've seen. Most Muslims would rather live with a lie than confront any illogic in their faith. The culture is very different than other faiths and the root is in the Quran:
004.140
YUSUFALI: Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell:-
PICKTHAL: He hath already revealed unto you in the Scripture that, when ye hear the revelations of Allah rejected and derided, (ye) sit not with them (who disbelieve and mock) until they engage in some other conversation. Lo! in that case (if ye stayed) ye would be like unto them. Lo! Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers, all together, into hell;
SHAKIR: And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.
Above you can read three translations of 4:140 - they all say the same thing. Don't talk to those who reject or deride the Quran. It is in the culture to run from conversations that challenge the Islam. Why? Well, the Quran answers that too with circular reasoning:
004.082
YUSUFALI: Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
PICKTHAL: Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.
SHAKIR: Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
You see there are no discrepancies because the Quran says so. So not only must you not speak with those that challenge the Quran, but you shouldn't even ask the questions yourselves:
Quran barely read and Arabic myopia
Now, most Muslims have not read much of the Quran in their native language even if they speak Arabic so they won't run from conversation because of the above quotes. They will run because the culture has already been created by those quotes. Funny, in fact, that if you don't want them to run - be as direct in your rejection as possible.
Many of those that have read the Quran, are non-native speakers following this doctrine from Mohammad:
"Verily the one who recites the Qur'an beautifully, smoothly, and precisely, he will be in the company of the noble and obedient angels. And as for the one who recites with difficulty, stammering or stumbling through its verses (because he doesn't know how to read it but is trying to), then he will have TWICE that reward."
However, even if they memorize the Quran, they usually do it in Arabic. On a side note, it is important to remember why - that the Quran places Arabic above all languages:
016.103
YUSUFALI: We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.
PICKTHAL: And We know well that they say: Only a man teacheth him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish, and this is clear Arabic speech.
SHAKIR: And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, and this is clear Arabic tongue.
The Quran goes on further with a little racism:
YUSUFALI: And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.
PICKTHAL: And he had read it unto them, they would not have believed in it.
SHAKIR: So that he should have recited it to them, they would not have believed
So...back to the point...where to start
When a Muslim starts telling me about the "scientific miracles" in the Quran, I challenge them to send me a single one. Simultaneously, I ask them to explain a few of the top mathematical, historical and scientific errors.
With female Muslims, especially those with kids, I usually ask them if they're ok with the sometimes violent sexism or with Mohammad's pedophilia. This tactic sometimes works with men, but you'll be surprised at how many men are ok with these issues. More on that later.
There are many other passages of the Quran or Hadith that would have most of us either laughing or in horror, but I promise you that many of them will have little effect on the average Muslim. These include passages of torture, murder, unscientific nonsense, racism, Antisemitism, etc.
In the next post, I'll start with key quotes from the Hadith on Mohammad's pedophilia. Although this is not in the Quran (except for some strange verses about young boys and wide-eyed girls in heaven), it helps to go here quickly because it often comes up right away. Again, though, I don't recommend this issue as a starting point for all discussions.
Where to start in your discussion is important. Muslims do not see any flaws in their faith, so you have to understand where they could be most receptive and/or most impressed. The first filter, receptivity, is important because Muslims run from challenging discussion faster than any other group I've seen. Most Muslims would rather live with a lie than confront any illogic in their faith. The culture is very different than other faiths and the root is in the Quran:
004.140
YUSUFALI: Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell:-
PICKTHAL: He hath already revealed unto you in the Scripture that, when ye hear the revelations of Allah rejected and derided, (ye) sit not with them (who disbelieve and mock) until they engage in some other conversation. Lo! in that case (if ye stayed) ye would be like unto them. Lo! Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers, all together, into hell;
SHAKIR: And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.
Above you can read three translations of 4:140 - they all say the same thing. Don't talk to those who reject or deride the Quran. It is in the culture to run from conversations that challenge the Islam. Why? Well, the Quran answers that too with circular reasoning:
004.082
YUSUFALI: Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
PICKTHAL: Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.
SHAKIR: Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
You see there are no discrepancies because the Quran says so. So not only must you not speak with those that challenge the Quran, but you shouldn't even ask the questions yourselves:
005.101
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Ask not of things which, if they were made unto you, would trouble you; but if ye ask of them when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made known unto you. Allah pardoneth this, for Allah is Forgiving, Clement.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
005.102
YUSUFALI: Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
PICKTHAL: A folk before you asked (for such disclosures) and then disbelieved therein.
SHAKIR: A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.
Quran barely read and Arabic myopia
Now, most Muslims have not read much of the Quran in their native language even if they speak Arabic so they won't run from conversation because of the above quotes. They will run because the culture has already been created by those quotes. Funny, in fact, that if you don't want them to run - be as direct in your rejection as possible.
Many of those that have read the Quran, are non-native speakers following this doctrine from Mohammad:
"Verily the one who recites the Qur'an beautifully, smoothly, and precisely, he will be in the company of the noble and obedient angels. And as for the one who recites with difficulty, stammering or stumbling through its verses (because he doesn't know how to read it but is trying to), then he will have TWICE that reward."
However, even if they memorize the Quran, they usually do it in Arabic. On a side note, it is important to remember why - that the Quran places Arabic above all languages:
016.103
YUSUFALI: We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.
PICKTHAL: And We know well that they say: Only a man teacheth him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish, and this is clear Arabic speech.
SHAKIR: And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, and this is clear Arabic tongue.
The Quran goes on further with a little racism:
026.198
YUSUFALI: Had We revealed it to any of the non-Arabs,
PICKTHAL: And if We had revealed it unto one of any other nation than the Arabs,
SHAKIR: And if we had revealed it to any of the foreigners
YUSUFALI: And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.
PICKTHAL: And he had read it unto them, they would not have believed in it.
SHAKIR: So that he should have recited it to them, they would not have believed
So...back to the point...where to start
When a Muslim starts telling me about the "scientific miracles" in the Quran, I challenge them to send me a single one. Simultaneously, I ask them to explain a few of the top mathematical, historical and scientific errors.
With female Muslims, especially those with kids, I usually ask them if they're ok with the sometimes violent sexism or with Mohammad's pedophilia. This tactic sometimes works with men, but you'll be surprised at how many men are ok with these issues. More on that later.
There are many other passages of the Quran or Hadith that would have most of us either laughing or in horror, but I promise you that many of them will have little effect on the average Muslim. These include passages of torture, murder, unscientific nonsense, racism, Antisemitism, etc.
In the next post, I'll start with key quotes from the Hadith on Mohammad's pedophilia. Although this is not in the Quran (except for some strange verses about young boys and wide-eyed girls in heaven), it helps to go here quickly because it often comes up right away. Again, though, I don't recommend this issue as a starting point for all discussions.
Wednesday, October 17, 2007
Read the Koran
Why read the Koran
One of the benefits of an Islamic debate is that the goal is so easy. The claim of perfection for Islam means that we only need to find one mistake to bring the whole thing down. However,it helps to read the Koran first in order to debate.
While cutting and pasting from one of the websites that point out Koran errors is good enough, it helps to know what you are talking about. Don't make the mistake that Muslims make. They will send you a link or just cut and paste without even reading the words. I've embarrassed quite a few Muslims by pointing out that their link left the key problem unsolved although their triumphant Muslim author claimed to have solved it all. On a side note...I am not surprised by the false claims because, as you'll see in my last post on Dishonesty, Muslims have no problems with lying.
So...the best source I've found online for Koran translations is the USC site. Scroll down to the chapters. They also have an index and a search. You can ignore the logically flawed Dawaa (Muslim evangelism) about science and the Koran from a single point of view - guess the point of view? Overall, however, it's a great resource for discussing the Koran because it has three translations: Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, and Shakir.
You don't have to know Arabic
Access to multiple translations is key. It is very important because, as I discussed in my Fallacies post, one of the first things you'll hear from cornered Muslims is that only native Arabic speakers can discuss the Koran. As I've said before, this is an appeal to authority and nothing more. There are good translations available. If worse comes to worse, you can use some of the translator sites such as Google's: http://translate.google.com/translate_t. Unfortunately, translation sites do not take into account some of the changes in word use from 1400 years ago until today.
Oh, and while we're talking about translations - Islam means submission (not peace). This attempt to change meanings is one of the great cons by modern Muslims over the Western world.
Again, read the Koran...as much as you can stomach, then read some more. Don't worry, you won't convert :) because the the Koran itself will make that impossible with violent, misogynistic, scientifically and historically inaccurate stories.
The Hadith
"The general practices of Islam, or the Sunnah, come primarily from the hadiths ("reports") about Muhammad's life, which were passed down orally until codified in the eighth century AD, some hundred years after Muhammad's death. The hadiths comprise the most important body of Islamic texts after the Quran; they are basically a collection of anecdotes about Muhammad's life believed to have originated with those who knew him personally. There are thousands upon thousands of hadiths, some running to multiple pages, some barely a few lines in length."
Above paraphrased from Jihadwatch.org.
It's not necessary to read the Hadith because there is so much nonsense and too much to read. Simultaneously, don't be afraid of discussing the Hadith because of your lack of knowledge. The Hadith can be even more embarrassing for the Muslim than the Koran, and can help prove some of the errors in the Koran. Most of the key passages are detailed in sites that expose Islam's flaws. Here are some of those sites (remember this list because you may return to these sites again and again):
FaithFreedom.org - my favorite as this one was started by an ex-Muslim, Ali Sina
SkepticsAnnotatedBible.com/quran/ -line by line review of the Koran, showing contradictions, scientific problems, cruelty,...
JihadWatch.org/islam101/ - a nice intro to Islam
Answering-islam.org , InvestigateIslam.com
Christian sites with a huge amount of analysis. Great reference for detailed analysis.
History
The Koran has an interesting history. When talking to Muslims, you will hear that Mohamed was illiterate, and simply repeated his revelations to others who wrote them down. In fact, Qu'ran means "recitation." What really happened?
Well, one thing we know. The "one and only" Koran was actually many documents until years after Mohamed's death in 632. It wasn't until the reign of Uthman from 644 to 656 that the Koran was unified and completed in one text. In fact, Uthman's work to unify the documents was considered controversial with some thinking that he tampered with the narrative. Obvious question - how can there be many versions of a document form a god? Similar question - how can today's Koran be "the one and only" if it that is historically false?
Abrogation
More from JihadWatch.org:
Now, in my discussions with Muslims, abrogation has never come up. I believe this is because it would be a great way to demonstrate the lack of divine within the Koran. It could also be that most Muslims just believe without thinking. Don't underestimate the power of brainwashing.
Summary
Read as much of the Koran as you can to be prepare for your discussions. The Koran was not made unique until it was collated years after Mohamed's death. Also, many devout believers at the time accused Uthman of tampering with the sacred book. How can a divine book have controversy about its authenticity? Because...it's just a book.
Next post...let's get started errors and contradictions
One of the benefits of an Islamic debate is that the goal is so easy. The claim of perfection for Islam means that we only need to find one mistake to bring the whole thing down. However,it helps to read the Koran first in order to debate.
While cutting and pasting from one of the websites that point out Koran errors is good enough, it helps to know what you are talking about. Don't make the mistake that Muslims make. They will send you a link or just cut and paste without even reading the words. I've embarrassed quite a few Muslims by pointing out that their link left the key problem unsolved although their triumphant Muslim author claimed to have solved it all. On a side note...I am not surprised by the false claims because, as you'll see in my last post on Dishonesty, Muslims have no problems with lying.
So...the best source I've found online for Koran translations is the USC site. Scroll down to the chapters. They also have an index and a search. You can ignore the logically flawed Dawaa (Muslim evangelism) about science and the Koran from a single point of view - guess the point of view? Overall, however, it's a great resource for discussing the Koran because it has three translations: Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, and Shakir.
You don't have to know Arabic
Access to multiple translations is key. It is very important because, as I discussed in my Fallacies post, one of the first things you'll hear from cornered Muslims is that only native Arabic speakers can discuss the Koran. As I've said before, this is an appeal to authority and nothing more. There are good translations available. If worse comes to worse, you can use some of the translator sites such as Google's: http://translate.google.com/translate_t. Unfortunately, translation sites do not take into account some of the changes in word use from 1400 years ago until today.
Oh, and while we're talking about translations - Islam means submission (not peace). This attempt to change meanings is one of the great cons by modern Muslims over the Western world.
Again, read the Koran...as much as you can stomach, then read some more. Don't worry, you won't convert :) because the the Koran itself will make that impossible with violent, misogynistic, scientifically and historically inaccurate stories.
The Hadith
"The general practices of Islam, or the Sunnah, come primarily from the hadiths ("reports") about Muhammad's life, which were passed down orally until codified in the eighth century AD, some hundred years after Muhammad's death. The hadiths comprise the most important body of Islamic texts after the Quran; they are basically a collection of anecdotes about Muhammad's life believed to have originated with those who knew him personally. There are thousands upon thousands of hadiths, some running to multiple pages, some barely a few lines in length."
Above paraphrased from Jihadwatch.org.
It's not necessary to read the Hadith because there is so much nonsense and too much to read. Simultaneously, don't be afraid of discussing the Hadith because of your lack of knowledge. The Hadith can be even more embarrassing for the Muslim than the Koran, and can help prove some of the errors in the Koran. Most of the key passages are detailed in sites that expose Islam's flaws. Here are some of those sites (remember this list because you may return to these sites again and again):
FaithFreedom.org - my favorite as this one was started by an ex-Muslim, Ali Sina
SkepticsAnnotatedBible.com/quran/ -line by line review of the Koran, showing contradictions, scientific problems, cruelty,...
JihadWatch.org/islam101/ - a nice intro to Islam
Answering-islam.org , InvestigateIslam.com
Christian sites with a huge amount of analysis. Great reference for detailed analysis.
History
The Koran has an interesting history. When talking to Muslims, you will hear that Mohamed was illiterate, and simply repeated his revelations to others who wrote them down. In fact, Qu'ran means "recitation." What really happened?
Well, one thing we know. The "one and only" Koran was actually many documents until years after Mohamed's death in 632. It wasn't until the reign of Uthman from 644 to 656 that the Koran was unified and completed in one text. In fact, Uthman's work to unify the documents was considered controversial with some thinking that he tampered with the narrative. Obvious question - how can there be many versions of a document form a god? Similar question - how can today's Koran be "the one and only" if it that is historically false?
Abrogation
More from JihadWatch.org:
"Those Westerners who manage to pick up a translation of the Quran are often left bewildered as to its meaning thanks to ignorance of a critically important principle of Quranic interpretation known as "abrogation." The principle of abrogation -- al-naskh wa al-mansukh (the abrogating and the abrogated) -- directs that verses revealed later in Muhammad's career "abrogate" -- i.e., cancel and replace -- earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Thus, passages revealed later in Muhammad's career, in Medina, overrule passages revealed earlier, in Mecca. The Quran itself lays out the principle of abrogation:
2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?It seems that 2:106 was revealed in response to skepticism directed at Muhammad that Allah's revelations were not entirely consistent over time. Muhammad's rebuttal was that "Allah is able to do all things" -- even change his mind. To confuse matters further, though the Quran was revealed to Muhammad sequentially over some twenty years' time, it was not compiled in chronological order. When the Quran was finally collated into book form under Caliph Uthman, the suras were ordered from longest to shortest with no connection whatever to the order in which they were revealed or to their thematic content. In order to find out what the Quran says on a given topic, it is necessary to examine the other Islamic sources that give clues as to when in Muhammad's lifetime the revelations occurred. Upon such examination, one discovers that the Meccan suras, revealed at a time when the Muslims were vulnerable, are generally benign; the later Medinan suras, revealed after Muhammad had made himself the head of an army, are bellicose."
Now, in my discussions with Muslims, abrogation has never come up. I believe this is because it would be a great way to demonstrate the lack of divine within the Koran. It could also be that most Muslims just believe without thinking. Don't underestimate the power of brainwashing.
Summary
Read as much of the Koran as you can to be prepare for your discussions. The Koran was not made unique until it was collated years after Mohamed's death. Also, many devout believers at the time accused Uthman of tampering with the sacred book. How can a divine book have controversy about its authenticity? Because...it's just a book.
Next post...let's get started errors and contradictions
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