Friday, December 5, 2008

Mumbai Muslim Terrorists Laughed and Filmed the Dead

I guess this is what Muslims learn after reciting the Quran and being instructed in Jihad, see the article for more:

Father Apoorva, a 57-year-old builder, is still recovering from his injuries. Still reeling with shock, the family was initially even hesitant to tell their name.

Instead, Parikh’s son Rohan, 22, a business student, recounted his father’s experience in an email.

His father had gone to the Oberoi that night for dinner with two of his closest friends, he said.
The three friends were at a restaurant on the first floor of the Oberoi when they heard gunshots. The hotel staff tried to rush the guests out of the kitchen exit.

‘As the guests tried to rush into the kitchen, one terrorist burst into the restaurant and began to shoot anyone that remained in the restaurant. At this point my father was in the kitchen and, along with his two friends, rushed to the fire exit.

‘They had barely descended a few steps when they were trapped from both ends by terrorists.

‘The terrorists then rounded up anyone alive (about 20 people) and made them climb the service staircase to the 19th floor. On reaching the 18th floor landing they made the people line up against a wall.

‘One terrorist then positioned himself on the staircase going up from the landing and the other on the staircase going down from the landing.

‘Then, in a scene right out of the Holocaust, they simultaneously opened fire on the people. My father was towards the centre of the line with his two friends on either side. Out of reflex, or presence of mind, he ducked as soon as the firing began.

‘One bullet grazed his neck, and he fell to the floor as his two friends and several other bodies piled on top of him. The terrorists then pumped another series of bullets into the heap of bodies to finish the job.

‘This time a bullet hit my father in the back hip. Bent almost in double, crushed by the weight of the bodies above him, and suffocating in the torrent of blood rushing down on him from the various bodies my father held on for 10 minutes while the terrorists left the area.

‘When he finally had the courage to wiggle his arms he found that there were four other survivors in the room. They communicated to each other by touch as they were too afraid to make a sound.

‘My father moved just enough to allow himself room to breathe and then lay still. The survivors passed over 12 hours lying still in the heap of bodies too afraid to move.

‘They constantly heard gunfire and hand grenades going off in the other parts of the hotel. They feared that any noise would bring the terrorists back.

‘After approximately 12 hours, the terrorists returned with a camera and flashlight and joked and laughed as they filmed what they thought was a pile of dead bodies.

‘They then moved to the landing below where they set up explosives. On their departing, my father decided that it was too risky to remain where they were, due to the explosives.’

The three survivors then climbed the rest of the stairs to reach an air-cooling plant room where they hid, drinking sips of water from the air-conditioning unit, till Friday, November 28, morning when a commando team rescued them and took them to hospital.

7 comments:

Jana said...

[BRR]
Well, just wanted to check “YOUR FACTS”:

"In a poll broadcast on Britain's Channel 4 TV, nearly 25% of British Muslims said the July 7, 2005, terror bombings in London, which killed 52 innocent commuters, were justified. AND
A survey published in December[2006] found that 44% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombing attacks are "often" or "sometimes" acceptable. Only 28% said they were never justified."

Where did you find this kind of information as that? Of course, expect all anti-islamic blogers who try to blame islam and muslims for everything? Everyone who THINKS has to realise that!

But I’ve done my research! I went directly to Channel 4 and found three different articles that day (July 2005):

1. Channel 4 - News - 7/7 survey: your emails (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/religion/77+survey+your+emails/546537)

2. ICM RESEARCH JOB NO (1-6) _ 960416 (http://www.channel4.com/news/media/pdfs/top_lines.pdf)

3. Survey: 'government hasn't told truth about 7/7'
Citing:
“Channel 4 News, with GFK NOP, has commissioned a survey to reveal the Muslim community's attitudes towards the 'official narrative' surrounding the 7/7 bombings revealing that: 59% of the 500 people polled believe that the government has not told the public the whole truth about the 7th July bombings.

52% believe that the British security services have "made up" evidence to convict terrorist suspects.

24% believe the four men identified as the July 7th bombers were not actually responsible for the attacks.

68% believe that the Muslim community does not bear any responsibility for the emergence of extremists willing to attack UK targets. Although 58% felt that the community should be doing more. “
(http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/religion/survey+government+hasnt+told+truth+about+77/545847)

And in any of them Muslims DON'T say that bombing was justified. Even these surveys are showing that majority Muslims AND EVEN NON-MUSLIMS don’t believe that it was suicide bombers and don’t consider muslims and islam as thread to the society. However, after 7/7 there is posed much bigger thread of hostility towards them (muslims)...

4. “Take the term jihad, for starters. It’s often used by those who want to raise temperatures and inspire hatred of Muslims They tend to define it as a murderous campaign against non-Muslims. But scholars and moderate Muslims will tell you that the word’s root concept is “struggle” – and that the struggle often refers to the one within ourselves over our own failures." AND “In times of tension and terrorism, agitators tend to highlight the tense and terrifying texts in the others’ books — the Qur’an or the Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament. To suggest that violence is what the other faith is all about is dishonest and always alienating. I have never met a Jew or Christian who thinks that the texts in the “Holy War” books of Joshua and Judges (or try I Samuel 15) -- which license and even command genocide — are what Judaism or Christianity is about. Those scriptures instead climax in messages of peace and healing. So does the Qur’an”.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/muslims_speak_out/2007/07/jihad_crusades_and_muslim_mode.html

To mention you other “Remarkable FACTS” that does not really exist and they are just the lies of people as you who try to just blame and blame and blame:

“On the fifth anniversary of the September 11 attacks, a survey conducted by Al-Jazeera asked respondents, "Do you support Osama Bin-Laden?" A whopping 49.9% answered: yes.
July 2006 global Pew survey found that among Muslims, a quarter of Jordanians, a third of Indonesians, 38% of Pakistanis and 61% of Nigerians all expressed confidence in the mass murderer who founded al-Qaida."

I’ve checked all of them:
in AL-jazeera - result: NOTHING; and probably you don’t know either because if you say the truth you’ll give proper references what you don’t.
You cannot take “THE FACT” from other anti-islamic blogger page. Does not work like that!

1. http://people-press.org/ - that’s the organization which does the surveys. result: Nothing about muslims, everything about worsening situation that muslim have to face nowadays because of people as you who take the words form Holy Book and make the new meaning so alienated to true muslim believer!

2. YOU RIGHT! there is one survey where the percentage is growing, but I must disappoint you is about environmental concerns that are rising in the Middle East!
http://www.pewclimate.org/
http://www.arabenvironment.net/archive/2007/6/256884.html

SO AGAIN “YOUR FACTS” HAVE PROVEN TO BE HIGLY FALSE!
JUST CHECK IT OUT!

If there is person who takes the facts from Reliable Sources not form the bloggers’ pages the truth has to be discovered!

Even More shocking Information PROPOSED BY NON-MUSLIMS:

1. Conspiracy theory 7/7 by non-muslim:
Seeing isn't believing – “Mark Honigsbaum, who accidentally triggered at least one of the conspiracy theories, investigates” facts as: “asked passengers what they had seen and experienced and was told by two survivors from the bombed train that, at the moment of the blast, the covers on the floor of their carriage had flown up - the phrase they used was "raised up".” AND “the 7.40am had never run and that the next available train, the 7.48, had arrived at King's Cross at 8.42 - in other words too late for the bombers to have boarded the three tube trains that exploded, according to the official timings, eight minutes later at Aldgate, Edgware Road and Russell Square” AND “this theory is bolstered by the fact that police have never released the further CCTV footage showing the four emerging on to the concourse at King's Cross “.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jun/27/july7.uksecurity

2. Conspiracy theory 9/11 by many non-muslims:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html
http://www.america.gov/st/pubs-english/2006/September/20060828133846esnamfuaK0.2676355.html
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w-0Ms7mId34
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529813972926262623
CONCLUSION:

It’s very interesting that the great religion of Islam exists for centuries and the terroristic attacks started just before when there was a huge demand for the oil form Islamic countries. The army tactic tells you that if you want to attack someone you must to show him in the worst light! From 9/11, nothing else is happening... Lies and lies around BUT as it’s said ‘the lie has a short legs’ and once you’ll see the truth. Enjoy your lies! You can blame and blame, you can even make more and more people to hate islam and muslims but interesting is that even through that the islam nowadays is the most growing religion all over the world!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/31/religion
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jsW2bO9e-U0&feature=related
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3835

And to you make small note about your understanding of Quran: it doesn't work that you'll just pick what you want. People study Quran many years to understand and you thing that just because you've read it that makes you the expert? You're mistaken...

Silly Allah said...

You placed your comment on the wrong post, but, nonetheless, I've published it here in all of its disgusting dishonesty.

Jana - How hard did you really look? Taqqiyah running strong today, huh?

I will not even bother responding to your ad-hominem attacks, non sequiturs, and other logical fallacies.

Here are the facts with sources:

To see the survey go here: http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/what+muslims+want/158250#, the you'll read:
"Almost 1000 Muslims of varied ages, both male and female were interviewed for their opinions and collated into this survey.

You can compare your views to the views of the Muslims questioned by answering some of the questions yourself.

Start Survey"
When you click, "Start Survey," there is a link to the pdf which you can download.

To what extent do you agree that the July bombings were
justified because of British support for the war on terror? 22% said strongly agree or tend to agree.


Here's more discussion of the results: http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/kenan+malik+analysis+of+the+muslim+survey/158240
with an interesting quote that suites you well, "There is, in other words, a gap between the perception Islamophobia and the reality of anti-Muslim hostility. The problem is often less the reality of Islamophobia than the exaggerated perception of anti-Muslim hostility. " Furthermore, to quote Hirsi Ali- "There is no such thing as Islamophobia." It's just a realistic understanding of Islam.

http://terrorism.about.com/b/2006/09/11/al-jazeeras-readers-on-911-499-support-bin-laden.htm#gB3

Meanwhile, the results of an Al Jazeera online poll taken between September 7th and September 10th were released on the news site today. The results of the poll, to which 41,260 readers responded are thought provoking, to say the least:

1. Is the world more secure since September 11?

Yes: 4.2%

No: 95.8%

2. Do you support Osama bin Laden?

Yes: 49.9%

No: 50.1%


[About.com linked to the poll as did LittleGreenFootballs, but Al Jazeera has taken down the page. Maybe it's to hide the embarrassment or maybe it's because it has been a couple of year - let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Regardless, About.com is not an "anti-Islam blog."]

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=833
Today, almost no Jordanians (fewer than 1%) express a lot of confidence in bin Laden, and 24% say they have some confidence in him...[Total =25% with at least some confidence]
In Pakistan, confidence in bin Laden also has fallen, though not quite as dramatically. In May 2005, a majority of Pakistanis (51%) expressed at least some confidence in bin Laden; that number has declined to 38% in the current survey.

To be sure, bin Laden still has followers in the Muslim world. Fully 61% of Muslims in Nigeria express a lot of confidence (33%) or some confidence (28%) in bin Laden; that represents a significant increase from May 2003 (44%). Bin Laden's standing in Pakistan has eroded, but more Pakistanis still express at least some confidence in bin Laden than say they have little or no confidence in him (by 38% to 30%). And a third of Indonesians continue to express at least some confidence in the al Qaeda leader.

Among European Muslims, only about one-in-twenty Muslims in Germany and France express even some confidence in bin Laden to do the right thing in world affairs. But that figure rises to 14% among Muslims in Great Britain, and 16% of Spanish Muslims.

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=253

Violence against civilian targets in order to defend Islam can be justified…
French Muslims - 16%
Spanish Muslims - 16%
British Muslims - 15%
German Muslims - 7%

Jordan - 29%
Egypt - 28%
Turkey - 17%
Pakistan - 14%
Indonesia - 10%
Nigeria - 46%

Jana said...

You're right in one, I haven't found it but you did so let's have a look together:

Violence against civilian targets in order to defend Islam can be justified…
French Muslims - 16% so 84% DON't
Spanish Muslims - 16% so 84% DON't
British Muslims - 15% so 85% Don't
German Muslims - 7% so 93% DON't

Jordan - 29% so 71% Don't
Egypt - 28% so 72% Don't
Turkey - 17% so 83% Don't
Pakistan - 14% so 86% Don't
Indonesia - 10% so 90% Dont's
Nigeria - 46% so still 54% DOn't THING THAT!

Let's make average just from these countries:
on average there is 19.8% muslims who think that violence is justified and 80.2% WHO DON'T...

Does not matter what statistics you have, THIS IS THE POINT: you try to blame whole religious population of around 2 billion muslims because of some 20%!

That is what I'm disapointed with because that could be the trigger for violance... and does not matter what Quran says because people are weak and irrational.
Why trigger? Because you have majority who want to live peaceful life in community BUT if they always have to fight to prove something is getting very tiring and weaker individuals could slowly shift to the misinterpretations od Quranic verses...

AND that's what you don't want to see...

Silly Allah said...

You wrote: "You're right in one, "

You're lying - I found sources for more than just "one." I guess we will wait in vain for you to retract all of your nasty comments. The longer we wait, the lower your credibility.

"you try to blame whole religious population of around 2 billion muslims because of some 20%!"

No, that is not the point. The point of that comment to Omar was that he claimed it was just a small "fringe," who believed the violence was justified. I would hardly call the numbers I listed as "fringe." Second, even your 20% estimate of 2 billion yields 400 million total supporting violence against civilians in the name of Allah! That is not a small fringe in the slightest! That's a scary support base. To continue, it's not just 20%!. In Europe, it's 15% or 16%, but look elsewhere. I have been to some of those other countries. One-third of Muslims in Indonesia expressed confidence in Bin Laden as a leader! 61% of Muslims in Nigerians agreed - I guess I'll take that country off of my list of places to visit. We went from fringe to majority pretty quickly. What about the 49.9% in Al Jazeera's own survey?!? I can stop there because the data has demonstrated that "fringe" is simply wrong.

Finally, read the main point as I told Omar (and you failed to address in your fallacy-filled, initial attack):
"You have specifically avoided my main point - which is that Islam itself encourages violence. You cannot dispute the obvious Quran verses and Hadith that have been posted. Instead you use fallacies to argue around the subject - attempting (and failing) to label the followers of the obvious violent prescriptions in Islam as "fringe." Your denial is worse than the direct threats because of its inherent dishonesty."

Your next quote skirts the issue by claiming they are "misinterpretations" - if so, prove it.
"BUT if they always have to fight to prove something is getting very tiring and weaker individuals could slowly shift to the misinterpretations od Quranic verses..."

I really wish they were misinterpretations, but I've read too many Islamic holy books, Islamic scholarly writings, Islamic websites, and emails from Islamic experts (Muslim and ex-Muslim) to feel comforted by your dishonest representation. Moreover, I've presented that information for others to see, yet nobody has been able to refute it.

Also, your thesis is sickening - you basically say "don't look here" and "don't criticize." Non-Muslims have a right to understand the religion behind the attacks on their soil and on their people. People have a right to read the story of Muhammad's violent life, the Quran's violent verses, the supporting violent Hadith, the principle of abrogation, the racism, the sexism, and Jihad. This thread with you has only encouraged me to create another post on these issues.

"AND that's what you don't want to see... "

Is this a threat?

Jana said...

Dear Silly,

Firstly, it’s not me, who don’t tell the truth, when I said: “You’re right in one” was meant that we can agree in small percentage of people justifying the violence, no that your references were wrong.

Secondly, we cannot ever agree because you want to see ‘the glass as half empty’ whereas I look on ‘the glass as half full’. There is no point to discuss that with you.

However, I strongly disagree with you using that information as an implication of the Quranic verses. Don’t you think that current feeling of anti-americanism plays a huge role in all of that?
I surely do. Let’s have look in one of the information you’ve provided, Pew survey of attitudes:

1. Majority of the Muslims in either muslim countries, in Indonesia, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey, and non-muslim countries, as Britain, DON’T believe that 9/11 attacks were carried out by Arabs.

2. “While large percentages in nearly every Muslim country attribute several negative traits to Westerners - including violence, immorality and selfishness - solid majorities in Indonesia, Jordan and Nigeria express favorable opinions of Christians.”

3. Despite the percentage of people in Jordan, Pakistan and Indonesia considering the violence as justified against civilian targets, according to study, these numbers have declined substantially. “The shift has been especially dramatic in Jordan, likely in response to the devastating terrorist attack in Amman last year; 29% of Jordanians view suicide attacks as often or sometimes justified, down from 57% in May 2005.” And it’s stated that “confidence in Osama bin Laden also has fallen in most Muslim countries in recent years...”

Conclusion: It’s true that this percentage of confidence in Bin Laden and justification of violence have grown in Nigeria but to look on these data from broaden point of view no one, even you, could conclude that this is happening because of the Quranic verses. There a lot of external forces happening especially in those countries in last few years, so I dare to say that those opinions are based on anti-americanism not based on the teachings of islam.

To support my assumption:
http://www.gallup.com/Home.aspx
There was study conducted by Gallup World Poll which interviewed tens of thousands of the residents of more than 35 nations with significant Muslim population. The results were published in the book called ‘Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think’. One of the results was that “Those who condone acts of terrorism are a minority and are no more likely to be religious than the rest of the population.

With that I want to finish.

Silly Allah said...

"no that your references were wrong. "

Well, it's great that you finally admit that you were wrong in your first post. We're all waiting for a retraction of all the nasty comments in your first post as well.

"Secondly, we cannot ever agree"

This doesn't bother me, and I don't expect to agree with somebody who has delusions of a supernatural being that condones violence, racism, sexism, pedophilia and hatred. Remember that the point of my post to Omar (which you first responded to) was to point out his dishonesty in the word "fringe." You then said I was telling lies along with a lot of other nasty comments. You came down off of your high horse once proven wrong. However, you still haven't acknowledged that it is much more than a fringe of Muslims that advocate violence against civilians in the name of Allah. So again, it doesn't matter to me that we disagree - the facts are more important than your opinion because lives and livelihood are at stake.

You then said: "I strongly disagree with you using that information as an implication of the Quranic verses. Don't you think that current feeling of anti-americanism plays a huge role in all of that? "

Unfortunately, no. Again, I really wish you were right, but it's not political. Let's look at Bin Laden's impetus for attacking America - it was "infidel" troops on Muslim soil. Although the troops were America, it was not about anti-Americanism according to Bin Laden, it was religion. Let's look at Wikipedia's article on Al Qaeda:

"Al-Qaeda's objectives include the end of foreign influence in Muslim countries and the creation of a new Islamic caliphate. Reported beliefs include that a Christian-Jewish alliance is conspiring to destroy Islam,[7] and that the killing of bystanders and civilians is Islamically justified in jihad."

Don't see the phrase anti-Americanism there. See a lot of religious reasons. From the Council of Foreign Relations:

"When Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, bin Laden wanted Arab veterans of the Afghan war to help the Saudi army defend Saudi Arabia. He saw the arrival of American troops to confront Saddam—and the continued U.S. military presence in the Gulf after the war—as a violation of the sanctity of Muslim territory."

Again, it's about infidel troops from Dar al Harb (Land of War) coming to Dar al Islam (Land of Islam).

Also, it's not just the Quran, but the Hadith. You keep pointing to 9-11 blame denial by Muslims as a good thing, but it's a flawed argument. It's not only a self-serving method to save a tarnished image for Islam, but it's often connected with Jew-blaming. How is it that all the evidence pointing to Muslim hijackers and Al Qaeda's participation (including a confession on Al Qaeda's part) is ignored but no evidence is required to blame the Jews. This Jew-hating can only come from the Quran and Hadith in countries that barely have Jews at all (Malaysia and Indonesia, for example). Actually, let's look at the perception of Jews in Indonesia - hmm that would be only 17% positive. The Quran and Hadith are quite clear in making Jews the enemy. There are many example, three include: Allah turning Jews into apes and pigs in the Quran, Muhammad murdering all men and enslaving women in a Jewish village, and the following verse in the Hadith

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

The very verse above is including in Hamas's charter against Israel. I may not be Jewish or Israeli, but I get it. It is a clearly logical demonstration of the Quran/Hadith inspiring a culture of hate and violence.

While I'm happy that some of these numbers are declining in the Pew surveys, I am not comforted as an atheist until they truly are fringe. Moreover, as I've proven with the example of Jew-hatred, I don't think the numbers can become fringe while the Quran/Hadith are followed in all their hatred, violence, racism, sexism, etc. Remember, you yourself sent me this threat in your first post here:

"Something very big and hot is waiting for you afterlife"

Hmm, now where might you have thought of that threat...might it be the Quran?

22:19 These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads
22:20 Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted;
22:21 And for them are hooked rods of iron.
22:22 Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.

OK, now to your last comment: "'Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think'. One of the results was that "Those who condone acts of terrorism are a minority and are no more likely to be religious than the rest of the population.""

Thank you for bringing up that book! I forgot the title. That book was the perfect cover up book for Islam. If you really did your research, you would understand that. They play with the statistics to apologize for Islam:

"The cover-up is even worse. The full data from the 9/11 question show that, in addition to the 13.5 percent, there is another 23.1 percent of respondents--300 million Muslims--who told pollsters the attacks were in some way justified. Esposito and Mogahed don't utter a word about the vast sea of intolerance in which the radicals operate."

"And then there is the more fundamental fraud of using the 9/11 question as the measure of "who is a radical." Amazing as it sounds, according to Esposito and Mogahed, the proper term for a Muslim who hates America, wants to impose Sharia law, supports suicide bombing, and opposes equal rights for women but does not "completely" justify 9/11 is .  .  . "moderate.""

Mogahed even admits that her methodology of only using people who chose 5 out of 5 on scales was flawed:
"Yes, we can say that a Four is not that moderate .  .  . I don't know. .  .  .You are writing a book, you are trying to come up with terminology people can understand. .  .  . You know, maybe it wasn't the most technically accurate way of doing this, but this is how we made our cluster-based analysis."
BTW, this was a reversal of an earlier decision to include 4 out of 5's as most surveys do - in a 2006 article in Foreign Policy magazine, they included those who said 4 out of 5.

So, to review - Esposito and Mogahed want the data to show there are many "moderates" and few supporters of terrorism ("fringe" as Omar would say it). Unfortunately, they had to misrepresent the data to make that point. They manipulated the data, clustering 5 out of 5's among a number of questions for the lowest number [the percentage of Muslims who told pollsters that the attacks of September 11, 2001, were "completely" justified and who said they view the United States unfavorably]. So when they say only 7% are radicals, with the remainder as moderates, they are not including the full 13.5% that say that 9/11 was completely justified and not the 36.6% that said that 9/11 was partially or completely justified (4 or 5 out of a 5 scale).

36.6% is not "fringe."

Silly Allah said...

Let's go deeper into the fraudulent book you promoted:

Here's a scathing review from Middle East Strategy at Harvard (MESH):

"So who does speak for Islam? Apparently, Esposito and Mogahed do. For the book does not actually present the poll. It provides a very small and partial account of the responses to some questions, but fails to include even one table or chart of data. It does not even provide a clear list of the questions that were asked. The appendix, where one might expect to find questionnaires, charts, and tables, provides only a short narrative discussion of Gallup’s sampling techniques and general mode of operation."

So why do Esposito and Mogahed hide their data and push the 7% figure to apologize for Islam. Well, here is Esposito's place of work: http://cmcu.georgetown.edu/
funded by $20 million from Saudi billionaire Prince Alwaleed bin Talal It's a Saudi advocacy workshop.

The real number is 36.6% .

That book is trash. Harvard knows it, I know it and now you know it.