Sunday, November 18, 2007

The inheritance mistake in detail - Part 2

Two historical attempts at the mistake

Now, what happened when Muslims discovered the inheritance math mistake in the Quran? They needed to follow Sharia law in order to divide the inheritance, yet they took the Quran as divine with no mistakes. There could only have been two results: mass deconversion from Islam or "fixes" that allowed for peaceful division of the inherited property.

Al-Awl (or Aul)

Well, it turns out, I wasn't the first to discover this mistake. In fact, the 4th Caliph, Ali, saw it in 7th century A.D. His attempted fix, known as Al-Awl (or Aul), is basically a normalization. So, let's look at this example from the last post: A man dies and leaves behind 3 daughters, 2 parents and 2 wives. Let's see how Ali would change things (http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm under section 4:11):

"The ‘aul was first legalized by ‘Ali, the fourth Caliph, who, being questioned about the share of a wife, the other heirs being the two parents and two daughters, gave the answer “without premeditation” that the wife’s one-eighth had become one-ninth, for the two parents should take one-third, the two daughters two-thirds, and the wife one-eighth, which make up nine-eighths, and hence ‘Ali decided that each of the heirs should take less than was due,
so that the proportion might remain the same "


Now, keeping in mind that nowhere in the Quran does it say to normalize, let's look at the resultant math:

Quran's literal words give a total of 9/8:

3 daughters: 2/3
2 parents: 1/3
2 wives: 1/8

Using Al-Awl rules to normalize, you get:

3 daughters: 16/27
2 parents: 8/27
2 wives: 1/9

The first set of numbers were multiplied by 8/9 so that the total could equal 100%. That's it folks. A quick fix with no basis in the Quran.

Residues and Remainders

Another idea was to take remainders after each calculation. Let me be more clear by quoting from the same Muslim website above:

"In this case the parents first take their respective shares,
and the residue goes to the children, if there are any, failing which, the share of the
parents is increased. "


So, instead of following the Quran literally, that "Allah makes clear to you," Muslims invented words that didn't exist in the 4:11, 4:12 and 4:176 of the Quran...specifically, "first take" and "residue." There is no mention of order in the Quran's inheritance calculation, nor is there a mention of residue. Just for fun, let's go through the calculation:

2 parents first: 1/3, then daughters? No, actually, those who follow this fix actually calculate the 2 wives first at 1/8 total. Yes, I know that the wives are mentioned in a whole other (later) verse, so it's even sillier for them to get their share first but so be it. OK, so now, we've given away 1/3 + 1/8 = 11/24, leaving a balance of 13/24. Now, the daughters get their 2/3 of 13/24 = 13/36. In summary:

3 daughters: 13/36
2 parents: 1/3
2 wives: 1/8

Now, 13/36 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 59/72 <1 style="font-style: italic;" size="2">"The balance (i.e., 1-59/72 = 13/72) shall be given to the person bequeathed by the deceased; in the absence of such a person, it shall be given to the closest male relative of the deceased; in the absence of such a relative, the balance shall be distributed as per the regulations of the state of residence of the deceased."
I interpret this to mean "we don't know because we just made up the fix anyway." LOL Seriously, there is still a math problem, and, I imagine, some very angry relatives.

Let's revisit this fix. An order was added to the calculation whereby shares were taken of residues rather than the whole. However, this solution also has no basis in the Quran. Nowhere does it say to follow a particular order, especially in reverse of how shares are presented in the Quran (children first, then parents, then wives as opposed to parents and wives then children in the fix).

Islamic Math Mistakes With Fixes

Now, even if we were to accept the fixes, and even if we believed that the justification (of which there is none within the "perfect" Quran). Are we still left with a contradiction? Yes. Simply put, the followers of said fixes are not following the perfect Quran. Muslims who you debate actually know this, and will therefore refuse to give you the final percentages in a debate. If they do, go through this:

"4:11 says "if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance," does it not?"

The answer: yes

"OK, well you're giving those 3 daughters in this example 16/27 or 13/26 (depending on which fix they're using). Doesn't that violate the Quran?"

The answer: uhh...but...uhh...you have to calculate shares after normalizing (or based on residues).

"OK, but the Quran never says to calculate shares after normalizing (or based on residues). In fact, there isn't even a word that is close to normalizing (or residues, nor any mention of order in the calculation). Let's return to 4:11..."

And so the debate will go on ad infinitum. The point stays though - silly Allah can't do math.

In the next post, I will go through some of the other rebuttals and lead into more inheritance mistakes.

40 comments:

SHAH said...

What is Religion?


Before Understanding Religion firstly analyze

Q. Who is Almighty?

a) Allah (who had created the universe)

or

b) The creations of Allah (like sun, moon, earth, you, me, etc.)

In solving above problem you will find that Allah is Almighty.

Now Analyze,

Q. Who must be worshiped?

a) The Almighty Allah.

OR

b) The creations of Allah(like sun, moon, human being etc.)

OR

c) The creations of Human being( Scooter, Car, Statue, etc.)

In Solving the above problem you will find that The Almighty Allah must be worship.

Now the Question arises how should we worship Allah

- Directly

Or

- Indirectly (means some people recognize that the creation of Allah is Allah)

Let us see an Example

Mr John who loves his mother very much he can do anything for her. Mr John made a statue of his beloved mother and start recognising that statue as his mother, one day his mother became ill and asked him for a Glass of water but Mr John start giving the glass of water to the statue of his mother as he is treating the statue as his mother. His mother asked again for a Glass of water , but Mr John again gave the glass to the statue of his mother and the process continued…..

Now tell me whether his mother would be happy with him?
The answer will be no, even if the Thousands of people say to you that the statue of the mother of Mr John is his mother your answer will remain NO.

In the same manner if thousand of people say to a rational person like you and me that the Sun (a creation of Allah) can be recognised as Allah the Answer will only Be NO.

Conclusion:

When God/Allah is one then the religion must be one that is to Worship only Allah.

What is Islam?


Islam is an Arabic word which mean Submission to the Will of Allah i.e. God Almighty. Islam is derived from the word salaam meaning peace.


Now Let us see whether following good people are Muslim or not:

a)Adam (peace be upon him), who was the first man on the earth and the First Prophet also.

-The answer is Yes as Adam(peace be upon him) worshiped only ALLAH in his period

b)Jesus/Isa (peace be upon him)

- The answer Again is Yes as Jesus(peace be upon him) never recognised or said himself as god and also He worship only Allah not the creations of Allah.

c)Muhammad (peace be upon Him)

- The answer is yes as Muhammad (peace be upon him) never recognised himself as god and he worshiped only Allah not the creations of Allah. And he was the first Muslim in His period.

The person who believe that Allah is one and he/she only worship Allah and not the creations of Allah and Also he/she believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the last Prophet of Allah is a Islamic/ Muslim.

Silly Allah said...

Shah - did you mean to just post nonsense or was this an accident?

Let's start with your first question...

"Q. Who is Almighty?

a) Allah (who had created the universe)

or

b) The creations of Allah (like sun, moon, earth, you, me, etc.)"

you have committed a logical fallacy for you forgot many other options:

c) Nobody - Universe was not created by a supernatural being

d) Zeus

e) Hindu gods

f) The Flying Spaghetti Monster

g) My pet rock - it has amazing powers...really! If you can't understand it, well then you just don't have enough faith.

e) The squirrel that eats from my bird feeder. No matter what I do, he figures out how to get to the bird food. That's miraculous in my opinion

f) Can we stop here? I think the readers get the point

So now you must realize that you've commented with nonsense.

Interestingly enough, you've commented with nonsense on my post about inheritance mistakes without posing a counterargument to the logic on the page. Does that mean you don't have a counterargument? If so - you should realize then that Muhammad made a mistake in his revelations and that Allah doesn't exist. Perfect beings don't make mistakes.

Oh, and this part is just silly:

"Now Let us see whether following good people are Muslim or not:

c)Muhammad (peace be upon Him)"

While I agree that he is Muslim, but he is not a good person. You see "good people" don't murder, enslave, have sex with 9 year olds, incite violence and hatred nor start sick cults like Islam.

SHAH said...

Many Many thanks for giving me reply brother I have given you last message to make you understand little about Islam.
Even you know that we both are created by one Almighty Creator who has created our lovely Jesus(peace be upon him).
Ask yourself brother whether our lovey Jesus (peace be upon him) had created the Universe. The answer would be NO.
Our lovely Jesus(peace be upon him) had spread only peace and love between the human being. He was a Christ in His period. And we All love him very much but it doesn't mean that we are going to worship him as he is not our God and nor the son of The Almighty God.

Let me explain you that why i am saying you that

Suppose I create a Pen from a peace of plastic sheet for you and that is very nice also but it doesn't mean I can say that the pen could be my Son as It is Just the creation of mine and also I am superior to it also.

In the Same manner The Almighty God(Allah) Has created our lovely Jesus(peace be upon him) who is very nice, A Christ for us. But neither he is the Son of God nor he is a God. As he himself said that The God is One.

Now as per your Question about our Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) Whether he was Good or Bad.
Let us see one by one.

Firstly you have said that he had sex with 9 year old girl.

What is the problem with it?

Our Lovely Muhammad(peace be upon him) had married with her which is 100% legal.
It was the tradition in that period to do marriage in early age in most part of the world.

(2) Muhammad(peace be upon him)have done Violence.
To analyze whether Muhammad have done Violence or not let us see the following example

Suppose you are at your home with your Family whom I respect very much and one day,10 military personnel and who are also Christian like you cam to your house and done all the bad things with your family and they also start killing you then what would you do...
Of course you will protest the evil activity of that military personnels .
Now here the Violence of your will be good but the Violence of that Military personnel would be bad.
And if you start treating that All Christian and military personnels are Terrorist then it would be wrong as Few person are Terrorist. Neither in Military nor in Christianity Killing of Innocent is Allowed.

Now In the Period of Muhammad(Pbuh) Muslim were in minority.
Muslims were tortured by Non-Muslims as We Muslim had stopped praying the God made up of Mud, Clay, Statue,etc (All the creations of Allah)
Is It a Sin to worship our Almighty God(Allah) who have created our lovely Jesus(pbuh) and our lovely Muhammad(pbuh).
But we Muslims(peace loving people) Tolerate such act.
But afterward we have taken the steps against such Non-Muslim by using Violence.

We Muslim still love all Human being and we want that all Human being go to paradise.

See my Intention is not to insult you but as i Love all human being so that is why i have transfered you message of Islam.

And the God (Allah) is the master of the day of Judgment, Heaven and Hell.

'O Allah make us as peaceful as you have made our lovely Muhammad(pbuh) and our lovely Jesus(pbuh).'

SHAH said...

Brother I further would like to say that there is not a Single Mistake in Quran as here are the Words of the God itself.
But Man can do the mistake in translation of Quran, it doesn't mean the Quran is incorrect.
In Sura Nisa 4:11-12
MINIMUM SHARE of an Individual is mentioned.
Now let us see your doubt.
"Quran's literal words give a total of 9/8:

3 daughters: 2/3
2 parents: 1/3
2 wives: 1/8
"
Brother do you studied BODMAS rule in Maths here the provision relating to BODMAS.

If a man Died and left
3 daughters
2 parents
2 wives

and have left $36000 after dead
In the above
1/8 share of the above inheritance will be given to wifes i.e. $36000/8= $4000
1/6 share for one parent of the above Inheritance i.e. $36000/6= $6000
In the same manner 1/6 portion will be for other parent i.e. $6000

And Afterwards out of the LEFT INHERITANCE 2/3 portion will be given to 3 daughters i.e. [$36000-{$4000+$6000+$6000}]X 2/3
= 13333.33 approx

Now see
2 wives = $4000
2 parents = $12000
3 daughters= $13333
Amount left= $6667
=======
Total $36000
=======
the amount left can be distributed in any way as the legal heir deem fit.


If you have any other doubt relating to Quran you can ask me. I will not be unhappy.

Take care.

Silly Allah said...

Either you didn't read my response or you didn't understand it.

Let me repeat then...I wrote this:

-----
Let's start with your first question...

"Q. Who is Almighty?

a) Allah (who had created the universe)

or

b) The creations of Allah (like sun, moon, earth, you, me, etc.)"

you have committed a logical fallacy for you forgot many other options:

c) Nobody - Universe was not created by a supernatural being

d) Zeus

e) Hindu gods

f) The Flying Spaghetti Monster

g) My pet rock - it has amazing powers...really! If you can't understand it, well then you just don't have enough faith.

e) The squirrel that eats from my bird feeder. No matter what I do, he figures out how to get to the bird food. That's miraculous in my opinion

f) Can we stop here? I think the readers get the point

So now you must realize that you've commented with nonsense.
-----

It should be clear from that response that you have made a logical fallacy in assuming the existence of Allah, and I am an atheist. So, therefore, what you just wrote makes no sense:

"Even you know that we both are created by one Almighty Creator who has created our lovely Jesus(peace be upon him)."

In fact, I'd argue that you don't know that there is a creator either. You believe in one. That is very different.

I have to say that my favorite part of your post is this:

"Firstly you have said that he had sex with 9 year old girl.

What is the problem with it?"


Well, I think that says it all my friend. You don't have a problem with it. Probably because you've been brainwashed to believe that everything Muhammad did was ok.

Silly Allah said...

WRT your second comment on BODMAS:

Thank you SHAH, this last post was lovely.

First of all, you copied the flawed BODMAS excuse from others, probably Naik. Second, you did it on the very same page where I demonstrated why it's wrong. Third, and best of all, you even did the math wrong!!

Let's go through it...the BODMAS fix to the mistake is simply the Residues and Remainders excuse. Starting with what I already wrote above:


So, instead of following the Quran literally, that "Allah makes clear to you," Muslims invented words that didn't exist in the 4:11, 4:12 and 4:176 of the Quran...specifically, "first take" and "residue." There is no mention of order in the Quran's inheritance calculation, nor is there a mention of residue.


You see you're inventing words. BODMAS is all well and good for doing simple arithmetic, but you can't do BODMAS unless someone specifies where the brackets go my friend. The little trick that Naik (or some other charlatan) pulled on you was to insert brackets in a convenient location to avoid most (not all) of the mathematical problem. You wrote "Afterwards out of the LEFT INHERITANCE 2/3 portion will be given to 3 daughters" - where do you get the right to insert "Afterwards" and "LEFT INHERITANCE"? Are you a prophet? Because the Quran does not have those words. Here is what the Quran says:

YUSUFALI: Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.

Nowhere does it say "Afterwards" as you claim. In fact it would be literally difficult because you want the order of operations to in reverse order to the way the text is presented in the verses. Unfortunately for you, the Quran is quite clear in the mistake, which is why there are even two fixes in the Muslim world - your Residues and Remainders (or BODMAS) fix and the Al-Awl fix. Both have no basis in the Quran and try to make up for an obvious math mistake.

Now let's see where you made your math error. You wrote:

"1/8 share of the above inheritance will be given to wifes i.e. $36000/8= $4000"

But you should have written:

1/8 share of the above inheritance will be given to wifes i.e. $36000/8= $4500

With Allah (or is it really Muhammad?) making so many math mistakes, it's no wonder you have difficulties.

Thus, you end up with 13/72 of $36k left over or $6500 if you use your made up rules. So what are you going to do with the leftover money? You say:

"the amount left can be distributed in any way as the legal heir deem fit."

Huh? So the perfect, clear Quran needs you to add even more words? You changed the Quran inheritance rules to make them work, but then they didn't really work out anyway! You say as the legal heir deems fit, other Muslim sites say, "The balance (i.e., 1-59/72 = 13/72) shall be given to the person bequeathed by the deceased; in the absence of such a person, it shall be given to the closest male relative of the deceased; in the absence of such a relative, the balance shall be distributed as per the regulations of the state of residence of the deceased." And still other Muslims ignore this fix to the mistake altogether and use Al-awl normalization. What does the Quran say on the leftover? Nothing. It's simply wrong.

So instead of repeating what others have told you about the BODMAS fix, why don't you think for yourself? Maybe then you'll realize that the Quran is simply wrong. Allah can't do math and, btw, neither can you :)

SHAH said...

Many Many Thanks Brother for giving me reply

It is absolutely correct that there is No word like BODMAS and Left inheritance in The Quran but I have said that to make you easy to understand Surah Nisa 4:11-12
Now let us analyse again Sura Nisa

Surah Nisa 4:11-" Allåh enjoins you concerning your children: for the male is the equal of the portion of two females; but if there be more than two females,two-thirds of the inheritance; and if there be one, for her is the half. And as for his parents, for each of them is the sixth of inheritance, if he has a child; but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, for his mother is the third; but if he has brothers, for his mother is the sixth, after (payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt. Your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in benefit. This is an ordinance from Allåh. Allåh is surely ever Knowing, Wise."

4-12 "And yours is half of what your wives leave if they have no child; but if they have a child, your share is a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and theirs is the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child, their share is the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt.And if a man or a woman, having no children, leaves property to be inherited and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then for each of them is the sixth; but if they are more than that,they shall be sharers in the third after(payment of) a bequest that may have been equeathed or a debt not injuring (others). This is an ordinance from Allåh: and Allåh is Knowing, Forbearing."

Now from the above sura it is very Clear that
1)The Share of wifes is 1/8 of inheritance (after Payment of a debt and will)[specifically mentioned]
2)The Share of Parents is 1/6 each of inheritance(after payment of debt and will)[specifically mentioned]
3)But the share of 3 daughter is 2/3 of the Inheritance.

Now I think you are confuse with the word inheritance.
Firstly understand in all the following situations we can say same word i.e. inheritance.

1)Money or kind realized after the death of a Man.[Inheritance]
2)Money or Kind realized after payment of Debt and will.[Inheritance]
3)Money or kind realized after payment of debt, will, share of parents and share of wife.[Inheritance]

The word 'Inheritance' is very confusing, but why you are confusing brother as you are smart enough to understand that the share of daughters will be 2/3 of Inheritance (money or kind realized after payment of debt, will, share of parents and share of wife).

Use any permutation and combination the answer would have no error.

If you have any other doubt or misconception you can ask me freely.

And let me tell you my brother no one can do my mind wash. If you have truth I will believe in you.
I always take the side of truth not the side of false.

"Seek ye the truth, and the truth shall set you free" (John 8:32).

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - you have come back for more! This is getting fun. It's amazing to read your replies because like most Muslims I've debated you have no self-critical capability. You start with the assumption that Allah is real and the Quran has no mistakes. Have you ever considered that you might be wrong? Well, you should start because your last message just proved to all that Allah can't do math.

One thing - I know you sent two messages, but I can not publish the other because you included a spam link which I don't allow. Please remove the link and I will include.

Now to your last message. You finally realized that your BODMAS excuse was incorrect:
"It is absolutely correct that there is No word like BODMAS and Left inheritance in The Quran"
You cannot insert new words into the Quran to make the math work. If Allah can't do math, you can't cheat. Maybe you will be smarter now and avoid Naik's fallacy-filled website. Also, did you understand the math error you made? 36000/8=4500 not 4000.

OK, let's move on. Once your BODMAS excuse had been exposed as false, you decided to try a new one. In one sense, I'm not surprised given my experience with Muslims. However, what does that say about you? If you realized that you'd been told a lie by other Muslims, why wouldn't you start questioning the entire religion? Are you that brainwashed that you can't see through the Quran's mistakes? Is blind belief your only way of thinking? As you will see below, your new fix is very easy to expose as false. What will you do once I show you - will you then realize that Islam is false? I actually think you already know that, but enjoy pedophilia and violence. You've already indicated your support for having sex with 9 year olds in your comment above.

OK, let's continue. Your new fix is very easy to expose. You said:
"Now from the above sura it is very Clear that
1)The Share of wifes is 1/8 of inheritance (after Payment of a debt and will)[specifically mentioned]
2)The Share of Parents is 1/6 each of inheritance(after payment of debt and will)[specifically mentioned]
3)But the share of 3 daughter is 2/3 of the Inheritance."


This isn't exactly correct because the after payment of debt and will refers to all if you read it carefully. However, even if we assume you are right, in the case where the debt=0 and there is no will, you have only proven my point:
1)Wives=1/8
2)2 Parents =1/6+1/6=1/3
3)3 Daughters = 2/3

Total = 9/8>1

Done - you proved my point. Thank you :)

For fun, we will continue and expose your lie.

You inserted this assertion without any proof whatsoever (in fact, no other Arabic-speaking Muslim has ever tried to do this):

Firstly understand in all the following situations we can say same word i.e. inheritance.

...
3)Money or kind realized after payment of debt, will, share of parents and share of wife.[Inheritance]


Wow - you have a dictionary that adds the phrase "share of parents and share of wife"? How could you insert a lie so easily? Do you have a moral compass? What does it say about Islam if you have to lie to defend it? I thought Allah made it all "clear"?

I'll wait while you find me a dictionary (no Islam apologist sites please, a real, simple dictionary for all the readers to see) that proves your third definition is correct.

SHAH said...

Many Many thanks brother for your reply.
Brother as I have told you earlier that no one can do mind wash of mine. The word BODMAS and left inheritance was given by me to make you understand the Sura Nisa.
So don't blame other.
Now one more thing I would like to tell you that if study a chapter in any subject and got any doubt in that it Doesn't mean the Chapter is Incorrect.

Further thanking you that you have accepted this

1)The Share of wifes is 1/8 of inheritance (after Payment of a debt and will)[specifically mentioned]
2)The Share of Parents is 1/6 each of inheritance(after payment of debt and will)[specifically mentioned]
3)But the share of 3 daughter is 2/3 of the Inheritance.

Now see carefully:

[After payment of Debt and Will] is not added with the share of 2 or more daughter in Sura Nisa.

The Sequence of payment is
(1) Firstly, Payment of Debt and will.
(2) Secondly, Payment of wifes and parents which is clearly mentioned .
(3)Payment of Daughters [Because there is no specific line added after it regarding payment of debt and will]

In your case Debt=0 and also Will=0
Therefore firstly We have to do payment of wifes and parents
and from the left amount we will deduct payment of Daughters.

Now let us see Few illustrations:

Illustration 1:
A man died and left
3 daughters
2 parents
2 wifes
Debt $10000
Gross inheritance = $46000

Solution:
Inheritance after Debt= $46000-$10000=$36000

Parents share= 1/3X[$36000]=$12000
[Note: it is specifically mentioned that parents share would be out of inheritance after payment of debt and will]
Wifes share= 1/8 X [$36000]=$4500
[Note: it is specifically mentioned that wifes share would be out of inheritance after payment of debt and will]
Daughters Share= 2/3X[$36000-{$12000+$4500}]=$13000
[Note: it is not mentioned that the share of daughter would be out of such inheritance which is after payment of debt and will]

Now see the solution at a Glance
Debt = $10000
Parents' share = $12000
Wifes' share = $4500
Daughters' share = $13000
Balance amount = $8500
=======
Total $48000
=======
Illustration 2
A man Died and left
Debt=0
2 Parents
2 wifes
3 daughters
Gross Inheritance $ 48000

Solution:
Share of parents
= 1/3 X $48000= $16000
Share of 2 wifes
= 1/8 X $48000= $6000
[Note it is specifically mentioned that share of wife and parents will be out of inheritance after payment of Debt and will where here Debt and will is Zero]

Share of Daughters
= 2/3 X [48000-{$16000+$6000}]= $17333 approx.
[Note it is not specifically mentioned that the share of daughters is out of such inheritance which is after payment of debt, where here Debt is Zero]

Solution at a Glance:
Debt = $0
Share of Wifes = $6000
Share of parents = $16000
Share of Daughters = $17333
Balance amount = $8667
========
Total $48000
========


Brother now you got the answer of your doubt.

Brother for the purpose of defining inheritance word let me give you a example.

You have heard the word "profit"

Can you tell me what is the correct synonym of profit out of the following options.
(a) Gross Profit
(b) Net Profit
(c) Net Profit before tax
(d) Net Profit after tax
(e) Contribution.

The profit word may be use for any of the options above.
But if someone says that he had profit of $ 100000 its mean he have Net Profit after tax of $100000.

Brother in the same manner Inheritance word can be any of the following options
a) Gross Inheritance
b) Inheritance after payment of debt and Will
C) Inheritance after payment of Debt, will, parents' share and wifes' share.,etc.

Brother In Sura Nisa
It is clearly mentioned that
Share of wifes and parents will be after payment of Debt and will. So we can't calculate the payment of daughter from out of such inheritance after payment of Debt and will in the present situation.
So the share of Daughter would be out of inheritance after payment of Debt, will, parent's share and wifes' share.


Brother I have given you other mail also If you have doubt it that also you can reply me with this mail.

Brother I have a little request with you that please don't say any thing wrong to our Almighty Creator who has created you and me.
If you want to abuse me then i Have no problem as I am just a tiny creation of the Almighty creator.

Take Care.
Thanking you.
"May Allah forgive your and my All sins which we have done unknowingly"

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - you are being quite dishonest:

1. You added words to the Quran to excuse Allah of his silly math mistake. Specifically, you added "BODMAS" and "Left inheritance." Only, after I called you on it, did you retract the words.

2. Next you added a false definition to the word inheritance. Specifically, you added:
"3)Money or kind realized after payment of debt, will, share of parents and share of wife.[Inheritance]"

3. When asked for a source of false definition in 2, you acted as though I didn't ask. Therefore, let me repeat:

I'll wait while you find me a dictionary (no Islam apologist sites please, a real, simple dictionary for all the readers to see) that proves your third definition is correct.

The readers can see through your lies and we will probably have to wait forever because you know that you just made it up to try and save Allah from an obvious math mistake.

4. In your last comment, you wrote "Further thanking you that you have accepted this

1)The Share of wifes is 1/8 of inheritance (after..."

This is a clear lie because I had written:
"This isn't exactly correct..."

5. You have ignored additional proof that your fix is wrong by avoiding the question of the "balance." You see all is not well with the balance because Allah didn't think it would happen. You have not answered this comment:

Thus, you end up with 13/72 of $36k left over or $6500 if you use your made up rules. So what are you going to do with the leftover money? You say:

"the amount left can be distributed in any way as the legal heir deem fit."

Huh? So the perfect, clear Quran needs you to add even more words? You changed the Quran inheritance rules to make them work, but then they didn't really work out anyway! You say as the legal heir deems fit, other Muslim sites say, "The balance (i.e., 1-59/72 = 13/72) shall be given to the person bequeathed by the deceased; in the absence of such a person, it shall be given to the closest male relative of the deceased; in the absence of such a relative, the balance shall be distributed as per the regulations of the state of residence of the deceased." And still other Muslims ignore this fix to the mistake altogether and use Al-awl normalization. What does the Quran say on the leftover? Nothing. It's simply wrong.

6. You have ignored the fact that there are multiple Muslim "fixes" to this particular mistake by Muhammad's imaginary friend. For example, are you saying that all the Muslims following Al-awl (normalization fix) are incorrect?

There are many more inheritance math mistakes by Allah...this solution does not fix all. Read all the pages of my blog.

As a side note, you made another math mistake, LOL, can you find it?

Yes, I saw your other comment, but, since you are a proven liar, it's no surprise that you ignored this statement in my last comment:

"I know you sent two messages, but I can not publish the other because you included a spam link which I don't allow. Please remove the link and I will include."

As to your request to not insult your imaginary Allah - sorry, but I won't play along with your delusion. I am thankful that Allah doesn't exist or the world would be an even worse place with 9 year olds getting raped, more hatred, more murders, etc. etc.

Again, you have to ask yourself - if you must resort to dishonesty to prove your religion, what does that say about Islam? about you?

Second, lying to me just makes me laugh and prove my point to the readers. However, lying to oneself is the worst form of dishonesty. Think about it.

SHAH said...

Thanking you brother for writing me.

Brother I haven't added the following words to Quran
(a)BODMAS
(b)Left inheritance

I have used that word to make you understand the Sura NIsa.
Afterward I used only the words of Quran to make you Understand Sura Nisa.
In Surah NIsa Allah had specified minimum Share of member in the Inheritance.
Let us take an other example to make you understand
Q. A man Died and left
1 daughter
2 wives
2 parents
Debt $12000
Gross inheritance[means inheritance before payment of debt and will]
= $48000

Solution:
Share of wives= 1/8 [$48000-$12000]
= 1/8 X $36000
= $4500
Share of parents=1/3[$48000-$12000]
= 1/3 X $36000
= $12000
Share of one Daughter=
1/2 [48000-{$12000+$4500+$12000}]
= $ 9750

solution at a glance
Debt $12000
Share of wives $4500
share of parents $12000
share of daughter $9750
Balance $9750
=========
Total $48000
=========
Now brother see again there is Balance. As I told you that in Sura Nisa minimum Share of member is only defined. And the balance amount can be distributed by the member which may deem fit. If they want to give balance to charity they can, if they want to distribute the balance between themselves they can do with that, etc.
But we have to check whether the minimum share defined in Sura NIsa reached the appropriate person or not.

Now please concentrate on your study so that in Future you may not commit mistake and increase your power of understanding also.

Many people are only engaged to find error or mistake in Quran but all are failed to do so. Because Quran is error free.
If you have still and doubt relating to Quran you can share that with me.

Thanking you

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - you are wonderfully demonstrating the moral bankruptcy of Islam in each and every post. You have no problem with dishonesty. In fact, you are such a first class liar, that you changed the example in the last post!! Did you not think the readers or I would catch that?!?

You also have no grasp of logic, resorting to fallacies in each and every post. Amazing, too, that you keep trying to lecture me on math, yet all the readers can see your simple arithmetic errors quite clearly.

Let's look at the Quran, plain and simple for the case of
3 daughters
2 parents
2 wives

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance;

2/3 to the daughters

For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children;

1/6 to each parent if there are children

In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth;

1/8 to the wives

2/3+1/6+1/6+1/8=9/8

9/8 is more than 100%, so there is a Quran error. You have not raised a single cure for this problem without introducing new words in to the Quran. You have tried to introduce a special order in to the calculation, but the Quran prescribes no order.


Therefore I am left pointing out all the lies of previous points again because of your morally bankrupt policy of not addressing your lies:


1. You added words to the Quran to excuse Allah of his silly math mistake. Specifically, you added "BODMAS" and "Left inheritance." Only, after I called you on it, did you retract the words.

2. Next you added a false definition to the word inheritance. Specifically, you added:
"3)Money or kind realized after payment of debt, will, share of parents and share of wife.[Inheritance]"

3. When asked for a source of false definition in 2, you acted as though I didn't ask. Therefore, let me repeat:

I'll wait while you find me a dictionary (no Islam apologist sites please, a real, simple dictionary for all the readers to see) that proves your third definition is correct.

The readers can see through your lies and we will probably have to wait forever because you know that you just made it up to try and save Allah from an obvious math mistake.

4. In your last comment, you wrote "Further thanking you that you have accepted this

1)The Share of wifes is 1/8 of inheritance (after..."
This is a clear lie because I had written:
"This isn't exactly correct..."

5. You have ignored additional proof that your fix is wrong by avoiding the question of the "balance." You see all is not well with the balance because Allah didn't think it would happen. You have not answered this comment:

Thus, you end up with 13/72 of $36k left over or $6500 if you use your made up rules. So what are you going to do with the leftover money? You say:

"the amount left can be distributed in any way as the legal heir deem fit."

Huh? So the perfect, clear Quran needs you to add even more words? You changed the Quran inheritance rules to make them work, but then they didn't really work out anyway! You say as the legal heir deems fit, other Muslim sites say, "The balance (i.e., 1-59/72 = 13/72) shall be given to the person bequeathed by the deceased; in the absence of such a person, it shall be given to the closest male relative of the deceased; in the absence of such a relative, the balance shall be distributed as per the regulations of the state of residence of the deceased." And still other Muslims ignore this fix to the mistake altogether and use Al-awl normalization. What does the Quran say on the leftover? Nothing. It's simply wrong.

6. You have ignored the fact that there are multiple Muslim "fixes" to this particular mistake by Muhammad's imaginary friend. For example, are you saying that all the Muslims following Al-awl (normalization fix) are incorrect?

There are many more inheritance math mistakes by Allah...this solution does not fix all. Read all the pages of my blog.

SHAH said...

Brother I am not here to make you down, I am just here to show you The truth.

Read the complete sentence then come to conclusion in this way.

Surah Nisa 4:11-" Allåh enjoins you concerning your children: for the male is the equal of the portion of two females; but if there be more than two females,two-thirds of the inheritance; and if there be one, for her is the half.



Conclusion 1:
For more than two daughters, Two-thirds of inheritance.





"And as for his parents, for each of them is the sixth of inheritance, if he has a child; but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, for his mother is the third; but if he has brothers, for his mother is the sixth, after (payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt.



Conclusion 2-
Share of Each Parent 1/6 after(payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt.




Your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in benefit. This is an ordinance from Allåh. Allåh is surely ever Knowing, Wise."



4-12 "And yours is half of what your wives leave if they have no child; but if they have a child, your share is a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and theirs is the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child, their share is the eighth of inheritance after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt.


Conclusion:3-
Wives' share 1/8 of inheritance after(payment of) a bequest you have bequeathed or a debt.


"And if a man or a woman, having no children, leaves property to be inherited and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then for each of them is the sixth; but if they are more than that,they shall be sharers in the third after(payment of) a bequest that may have been equeathed or a debt not injuring (others). This is an ordinance from Allåh: and Allåh is Knowing, Forbearing."


Now All conclusions at a Glance are here
1)For more than two daughters 2/3 share of inheritance.
2)Share of each parent 1/6 of inheritance after payment of debt and will.
3)Share of wives 1/8 of inheritance after payment of debt and will.


llustration 1:
A man died and left
3 daughters
2 parents
2 wifes
Debt $10000
Gross inheritance = $46000

Solution:
Inheritance after Debt= $46000-$10000=$36000

Parents share= 1/3X[$36000]=$12000
[Note: it is specifically mentioned that parents share would be out of inheritance after payment of debt and will]
Wifes share= 1/8 X [$36000]=$4500
[Note: it is specifically mentioned that wifes share would be out of inheritance after payment of debt and will]
Daughters Share= 2/3X[$36000-{$12000+$4500}]=$13000
[Note: it is not mentioned that the share of daughter would be out of such inheritance which is after payment of debt and will]

Now see the solution at a Glance
Debt = $10000
Parents' share = $12000
Wifes' share = $4500
Daughters' share = $13000
Balance amount = $8500
=======
Total $48000
=======
Illustration 2
A man Died and left
Debt=0
2 Parents
2 wifes
3 daughters
Gross Inheritance $ 48000

Solution:
Share of parents
= 1/3 X $48000= $16000
Share of 2 wifes
= 1/8 X $48000= $6000
[Note it is specifically mentioned that share of wife and parents will be out of inheritance after payment of Debt and will where here Debt and will is Zero]

Share of Daughters
= 2/3 X [48000-{$16000+$6000}]= $17333 approx.
[Note it is not specifically mentioned that the share of daughters is out of such inheritance which is after payment of debt, where here Debt is Zero]

Solution at a Glance:
Debt = $0
Share of Wifes = $6000
Share of parents = $16000
Share of Daughters = $17333
Balance amount = $8667
========
Total $48000
========

Now I hope you got the answer.


Take care and God bless you.

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - Have you no shame? What does it mean for Islam if you have to protect Muhammad's imaginary friend from simple math mistakes through dishonesty? What does it mean for you?

You try to complicate a very simple problem. Allah is giving away more in inheritance than is even there. He does this on more than one occasion, but specifically here - he gives away 9/8 of an inheritance, which is an impossibility:
3 daughters: 2/3
2 parents: 1/3
2 wives: 1/8
Total = 9/8

Since you have no shame in distortion and repeating lies, I will summarize this thread for others. You objected to the math error above because it exposes the mathematical incompetence of Allah. So you have tried to fix the problem by the "Remainders and Residues" excuse listed above in this original blog post. As posted above, this is clearly false because there is no basis in the Quran. Nowhere does it say to follow a particular order in the Quran

You first lied by claiming BODMAS determined the order. When I demonstrated that there is no defined Bracketing in the Quran for BODMAS, you tried a second lie. You claimed that the definition of inheritance justified the ordering. When I asked for a justification or source of this definition, you next dishonestly avoided the question. You also lied again when you claimed that the words "after payment of debt and will" would solve your problems. I then pointed out that the "debt and will" payments apply to all three inheritor groups (children, parents and wives), and that they didn't help when debt and will were nonexistent. You lied once more by claiming that I agreed with you!

Since then, you have lied again and again by repeating the same old without justification - even once attempting to change the problem! Finally, you have dishonestly avoided the Quran's issue on how to deal with remainders by making up another rule. All the while you have made simple mathematical errors yourself.

Now, let's return to the "debt and will" point because you seem to believe that there's magic there to somehow claim an ordering.

First off - there is no reason why the inclusion of debt and will justifies any ordering of the math. Let me repeat - the Quran never states that the mathematical operations for inheritance calculations wrt children, parents and wives be ordered in any particular way. Never. So this whole argument is dead on arrival.

Second, you seem to not understand the grammar. Let's look at the grammar as translated by Yusuf Ali:

4:11 Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.

I bolded the key parts..."the distribution in ALL CASES after the payment of legacies of debts. YE KNOW NOT whether your PARENTS OR your CHILDREN are NEAREST to you IN BENEFIT." You see - you don't even understand the text! This is why I've never heard this connection of debt payments connected to ordering from any Arabic speaker. You are just wrong my friend.

Finally, as I pointed out many times before. If the debt and will are nonexistent - you are back to where you started...the numbers are again:

3 daughters: 2/3
2 parents: 1/3
2 wives: 1/8

Total = 9/8

So when you want to give away 13/36 to the daughters, you are not being a good Muslim and are violating the laws of the Quran because the Quran specifically states to give away 2/3. You can't have it both ways. Either you are a bad Muslim or Allah can't do math - which is it?

SHAH said...

Thanking you brother with due respect for your reply

You are writing your conclusions from Sura 4:11-12 in this way.

(a)Share of wives 1/8
(b)Share of daughters 2/3
(c)Share of parents 1/3
(d)Total 9/8

Brother before reaching to any conclusion you must first read the whole sentences given in Sura about that the above share is of WHat.

In Sura the share of left member is defined. If you read carefully you will come to the following conclusions

1) Wives' share 1/8 of inheritance (after payment of debt and will)
2) Parents' share 1/3 of inheritance (after payment of debt and will)
3)Daughters' share 2/3 of inheritance.

Now brother let us analyse only point no. 3 which create a doubt for you.

Suppose A man leave
only 3 daughters
Debt $30000
Gross inheritance $36000.

If we solve above question according to your point of view which is not given in Quran.
share of Daughter 2/3 X $36000= $ 24000, which is impossible as we have to pay Debt first.
But if you solve above Question In light of Quran then

Share of daughters

2/3 X[ {Gross Inheritance - Debt}- Share of wives and Parents]
=> 2/3X [{$36000-$30000}-0]
=> 2/3 X $6000
= $4000.
Which is correct as per Quran.

And it is clearly mentioned in Quran that First we have to pay the debt and then we have to pay Share of Parents and Share of Wives.

Now let see Illustrations so that it may clear you.

llustration 1:
A man died and left
3 daughters
2 parents
2 wifes
Debt $12000
Gross inheritance = $48000

Solution:
Inheritance after Debt= $48000-$12000=$36000

Parents share= 1/3X[$36000]=$12000
[Note: it is specifically mentioned that parents share would be out of inheritance after payment of debt and will]
Wifes share= 1/8 X [$36000]=$4500
[Note: it is specifically mentioned that wifes share would be out of inheritance after payment of debt and will]
Daughters Share=
2/3 X[ {Gross Inheritance - Debt}- Share of wives and Parents]

2/3X[{$48000-$12000}-{$12000+$4500}]=$13000
[Note: it is not mentioned that the share of daughter would be out of such inheritance which is after payment of debt and will]

Now see the solution at a Glance
Debt = $12000
Parents' share = $12000
Wifes' share = $4500
Daughters' share=$13000
Balance amount = $6500
=======
Total $48000
=======
Illustration 2
A man Died and left
Debt=0
2 Parents
2 wifes
3 daughters
Gross Inheritance $ 48000

Solution:
Share of parents
= 1/3 X $48000= $16000
Share of 2 wifes
= 1/8 X $48000= $6000
[Note it is specifically mentioned that share of wife and parents will be out of inheritance after payment of Debt and will where here Debt and will is Zero]

Share of Daughters
= 2/3 X [48000-{$16000+$6000}]= $17333 approx.
[Note it is not specifically mentioned that the share of daughters is out of such inheritance which is after payment of debt, where here Debt is Zero]

Solution at a Glance:
Debt = $0
Share of Wifes = $6000
Share of parents = $16000
Share of Daughters = $17333
Balance amount = $8667
========
Total $48000
========


Brother if you have any other doubt you can clear that with me.

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - out of respect for my readers, do not submit the same exact (wrong) calculations again.

Please stop the dishonesty and obfuscation by responding to what I've already fairly requested:

1. You claimed that the definition of inheritance justified your ordering of mathematical operations. When I asked for a justification or source of this definition, you next dishonestly avoided the question. Please provide justification for your 3rd inheritance definition or admit that you were lying

2. There is no reason why the inclusion of debt and will justifies any ordering of the math. The Quran never states that the mathematical operations for inheritance calculations wrt children, parents and wives be ordered in any particular way. Never. Please demonstrate how your ordering of the calculation arises using only the Quran - otherwise admit that you are making it up.

3. You seem to not understand the grammar. Let's look at the grammar as translated by Yusuf Ali:

4:11 Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.

I bolded the key parts..."the distribution in ALL CASES after the payment of legacies of debts. YE KNOW NOT whether your PARENTS OR your CHILDREN are NEAREST to you IN BENEFIT." You see - you don't even understand the text! This is why I've never heard this connection of debt payments connected to ordering from any Arabic speaker. Please demonstrate clearly, with sources, why you believe the debt does not correspond to the children's share or admit that you have been lying all along

-------
Please concisely and clearly respond to these three requests which you have dishonestly ignored until now. Please number them for others to see and do not include other obfuscating text. The readers are smart enough to know you have no defense when you avoid such requests. You should realize it too.

The obvious solution to this challenge is rather simple - silly Allah can't do math.

SHAH said...

Thanking you brother with due respect starting the solution of your questions

Starting from your first question

"justification for your 3rd inheritance definition or admit that you were lying"

The word in English have many meanings
Let us take a Word 'profit' which represents
(a) Contribution
(b) Gross profit
(c) Net profit
(d) Net profit after tax
(e) Net profit after tax and interest
(f) Net profit before Tax and interest.
(g) Net profit after payment of preference dividend,e.t.c

All the words above have different meaning but we can represent all of above with one word that is Profit.

Now in the same manner we can represent word inheritance in the following manner
(a)Gross Inheritance
(b)Inheritance after payment of debt and will
(c)Inheritance after payment of debt&will and share of wives & parents.
(d)Inheritance after payment of debt& will and share of wives & Parents and share of Daughters, etc.

In all the above the meaning is different but we can represent them in one single word "inheritance"

That is my common sense justification that I am not Lying Brother.


Now your Third Question

"3. You seem to not understand the grammar. Let's look at the grammar as translated by Yusuf Ali:......"

Brother there is the possibility of error in translation of Quran but we can't blame that Quran is incorrect.

Now see the translation given by most of people for
Sura 4:11 by

PICKTHAL: Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.




SHAKIR: Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.



Maulana Muhammad Ali:
Allåh enjoins you concerning your children: for the male is the equal of the portion of two females;but if there be more than two females,two-thirds of what the deceased leaves is theirs; and if there be one, for her is the half. And as for his parents, for each of them is the sixth of what he leaves, if he has a child; but if he has no child and
(only) his two parents inherit him, for his mother is the third; but if he has brothers, for his mother is the sixth,after (payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt. You parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in benefit. This is an ordinance from Allåh. Allåh is surely ever Knowing, Wise.



Usmani:

Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents or your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.


Majority of people said that share of Parents will out of inheritance (after payment of debt and will)

They haven't written 'all' word.

This proves that I am not saying false.

The Conclusion drawn from Sura Nisa
a)Share of each parent 1/6 of inheritance (after payment of debt and will)
b)Share of wives 1/8 of inheritance (after payment of debt and will)
c)share of daughters if more than 2 2/3 of inheritance.

Now about your Second Question
"2 There is no reason why the inclusion of debt and will justifies any ordering of the math....."

There is a essential need of debt and will to justifies ordering of Math.

As it is specifically mentioned that
First we have to pay the debt and will.
Secondly we have to give the share of wives and parents from the inheritance (after payment of debt and will)

Thirdly share of daughters as it is not mentioned specifically to pay shares of daughters from the inheritance (after payment of debt and will) and nor we can deduct it directly from the inheritance (before payment of debt and will)

For this let us take an example.
A man left
$30000 as debt
3 daughters
Gross Inheritance(before payment of debt and will) $36000

If we start giving the share of daughters directly from Gross inheritance i.e. $36000
It will be wrong as it will come to
$36000X2/3= $24000
Then how we will pay the debt which we have to pay first So the solution for this will be
Share of Daughters=
2/3[{Gross Inheritance- Debt&will}-{share of wives & parents}]
= 2/3[{$36000-$30000}-{0}]
=$4000.

Now the sequence is as follows:
a) Payment of debt and will out of gross Inheritance.
b) Payment of shares of wives and parents from Inheritance(after payment of will and Debt)
c)Payment of share of daughters

Thats proves that Ordering arises only from Quran.





Take care brother
If any other logical doubt remaining with you then please ask me.
Thanking you.

Silly Allah said...

Unfortunately for you, you have proved nothing. You know that you are lying - doesn't that say anything to you? Forget that this is the internet and you are trying to prove you are right. In your heart, you know you are lying. That can only mean there is no Allah to help you.

Now, let's go through your explanation:

1. This one is easy because even you admit you have nothing.
I wrote: Please provide justification for your 3rd inheritance definition or admit that you were lying
You added these definitions by assertion only This is a fallacy (please look it up):
(c)Inheritance after payment of debt&will and share of wives & parents.
(d)Inheritance after payment of debt& will and share of wives & Parents and share of Daughters, etc.
then you wrote
"That is my common sense justification"
Sorry, my friend, common sense says you are making things up. This is not proof I can also add and subtract definitions, but I won't do that because it's simply dishonest.

Again, please provide justification for your 3rd inheritance definition or admit that you were lying It's ok to admit that you are making up definitions as you go along to try and save Allah from his obvious math mistake.

Unfortunately, with your admission that you have no real justification for the definition, your game is essentially over because this is your most important false claim whether you realize it or not.

2. I wrote:
Please demonstrate how your ordering of the calculation arises using only the Quran - otherwise admit that you are making it up.

You responded with no justification...just lots of words and another attempt at math (when I explicitly asked you not to waste readers' time). Do you think the readers of this blog are dumb? They are not, and they see through your lame attempts.

You wrote:
"Secondly we have to give the share of wives and parents from the inheritance (after payment of debt and will)"
With no proof. Why? Then, you even had the audacity to claim, "Thats proves that Ordering arises only from Quran." Sorry, assertion is not proof.

Again, please demonstrate how your ordering of the calculation arises using only the Quran - otherwise admit that you are making it up.

3. I wrote:
Please demonstrate clearly, with sources, why you believe the debt does not correspond to the children's share or admit that you have been lying all along


Let's continue to show that you are twice as wrong as you think...

You wrote: "Brother there is the possibility of error in translation of Quran but we can't blame that Quran is incorrect.

Now see the translation given by most of people for" and then proceed to give Pickthall and Shakir translations. First off, Yusuf Ali is one of the most widely used translations and no one (no one but you!) has ever claimed there was an error in his translation for 4:11. Second, you ignored a key comma in the Pickthall translation The comma occurs right before "after any legacy he may have bequeathed." Finally, you ignore the sentence that implies no ordering: "Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. " for Pickthall and "your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness;" for Shakir.

Again, no Arabic speaker has made the claim you are making about debt and will wrt children. It makes no logical sense (even for Allah). In fact, even you subtract debt before allocating money to the children. Are you saying that Allah made even more mistakes? That Allah didn't know to pay off debts before paying the children? If this is true, your example is wrong and now Allah has to give away the debt and pay an additional 9/8...so your attempted fix actually makes it worse - Allah has to give away DEBT + 9/8!! Stupid Allah - he is really bad at math and you are trying to make him look worse, LOL

For the sake of our readers, I have included many translations..which, unfortunately for you, they agree with me and even every Islam apologist, that Yusuf Ali got it right. Are you saying Khalifa got it wrong, too? "All this, after fulfilling any will the deceased has left, and after paying off all debts. " Yes, some don't have the comma, but it's pretty clear from the great majority of definitions that you are in the wrong. There is simply no ordering prescription stated in the Quran so you must calculate the children s share as 2/3, the parent's share as 1/6+1/6, the wive's share as 1/8 for a TOTAL of 9/8. You know this is true, and are trying hard to save face for yourself. You don't realize that I have truth on my side so you cannot win.

Again, please demonstrate clearly, with sources, why you believe the debt does not correspond to the children's share or admit that you have been lying all along

Other translations:

004:011
* *
URL
Pickthall Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, [notice the comma]after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
Yusuf Ali God (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by God; and God is All-knowing, Al-wise.
Hilali-Khan Allah commands you as regards your children's (inheritance); to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if (there are) only daughters, two or more, their share is two thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is half. For parents, a sixth share of inheritance to each if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers or (sisters), the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases is) after the payment of legacies he may have bequeathed or debts. You know not which of them, whether your parents or your children, are nearest to you in benefit, (these fixed shares) are ordained by Allah. And Allah is Ever AllKnower, AllWise.
Shakir Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
Sher Ali ALLAH commands you concerning your children; a male shall have as much as the share of two females; but if their be females only, numbering more than two, then they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased leave; and if there be one, she shall have the half. And his parents each of them a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a child, but if he have no child and his parents be his heirs, then his mother shall have a third; and if he have brothers and sisters, then his mother shall have a sixth, [notice the comma]after the payment of any bequests he may have bequeathed or of debts. Your fathers and your children; you know not which of them is more beneficent to you. This fixing of portions is from ALLAH. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, Wise.
Khalifa GOD decrees a will for the benefit of your children; the male gets twice the share of the female. If the inheritors are only women, more than two, they get two-thirds of what is bequeathed. If only one daughter is left, she gets one-half. The parents of the deceased get one-sixth of the inheritance each, if the deceased has left any children. If he left no children, and his parents are the only inheritors, the mother gets one-third. If he has siblings, then the mother gets one-sixth. All this, after fulfilling any will the deceased has left, and after paying off all debts. When it comes to your parents and your children, you do not know which of them is really the best to you and the most beneficial. This is GOD's law. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
Arberry God charges you, concerning your children: to the male the like of the portion of two females, and if they be women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves, but if she be one then to her a half; and to his parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children; but if he has no children, and his heirs are his parents, a third to his mother, or, if he has brothers, to his mother a sixth, [notice the comma]after any bequest he may bequeath, or any debt. Your fathers and your sons -- you know not which out of them is nearer in profit to you. So God apportions; surely God is All-knowing, All-wise.
Palmer God instructs you concerning your children; for a male the like of the portion of two females, and if there be women above two, then let them have two-thirds of what (the deceased) leaves; and if there be but one, then let her have a half; and as to the parents, to each of them a sixth of what he leaves, if he has a son; but if he have no son, and his parents inherit, then let his mother have a third, and if he have brethren, let his mother have a sixth after payment of the bequest he bequeaths and of his debt. Your parents or your children, ye know not which of them is nearest to you in usefulness: - an ordinance this from God; verily, God is knowing and wise!
Rodwell With regard to your children, God commandeth you to give the male the portion of two females; and if they be females more than two, then they shall have two-thirds of that which their father hath left: but if she be an only daughter, she shall have the half; and the father and mother of the deceased shall each of them have a sixth part of what he hath left, if he have a child; but if he have no child, and his parents be his heirs, then his mother shall have the third: and if he have brethren, his mother shall have the sixth, [notice the comma]after paying the bequests he shall have bequeathed, and his debts. As to your fathers, or your children, ye know not which of them is the most advantageous to you. This is the law of God. Verily, God is Knowing, Wise!
Sale God hath [thus] commanded you concerning your children. A male shall have as much as the share of two females: But if they be females [only, and] above two [in number], they shall have two third parts of what [the deceased] shall leave; and if there be [but] one, she shall have the half. And the parents of [the deceased] shall have each of them a sixth part of what he shall leave, if he have a child: But if he have no child, and his parents be his heirs, then his mother shall have the third part. And if he have brethren, his mother shall have a sixth part, [notice the comma]after the legacies which he shall bequeath, and his debts [be paid]. Ye know not whether your patents or your children be of greater use unto you. [This is] an ordinance from God, and God is knowing and wise.

Omar said...

It's amazing that you consider 'Awl to be from the imperfection of the Quran when we Muslims consider it to be from the perfection of Shariah. I learned about 'Awl from an Imam with a masters degree in Islamic Inheritance. Tell me, which verse prohibits the dimunition of the shares? We preserve the proportions.. don't you think Muslim scholars would have been the first to accuse each other of abandoning the faith?

I suppose you think it's justice when here in the west, a judge will enforce a will that leaves everything to the dog, or the upkeep of your favorite garden, leaving your heirs deprived and impoverished. That's justice to you, right? Of course not. The reality is that your relatives have rights on you, and you have rights on your relatives. The Quran preserves that balance perfectly.

Brother Shah, please refrain from debating on inheritance if you have not studied inheritance from a sheikh. salam.

Silly Allah said...

"Brother Shah, please refrain from debating on inheritance if you have not studied inheritance from a sheikh"

You see SHAH - you should refrain from debating because you don't know what you're talking about. :) Apparently Muhammad didn't know what he was talking about either when he made up these verses. According to Omar, we need Shariah, Imams and Masters degrees to understand the simple arithmetic, and, well, Muhammad was illiterate.

Omar, I thought that "Allah makes clear to you"? I guess he didn't. You say Al-Awl normalization is the fix, but it's very existence as a fix demonstrates that Allah's math, as stated in the Quran, needs fixing. Simply put, the Quran is incorrect and imperfect.

"don't you think Muslim scholars would have been the first to accuse each other of abandoning the faith?"
No, it does not matter if Muslim scholars still believe - that is not an argument against Quran's imperfection. It is an argument only for the success of brainwashing. You should realize that this is a red herring logical fallacy. You will also never question your belief in Muhammad's imaginary friend. You are brainwashed for good and will squirm your way through every Quran mistake - and there are a lot of them.

Let's go through the one on this page:

Look Omar, when you give away 16/27 of the inheritance to the 3 daughters instead of 2/3, you are violating 4:13 :
These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement.
So no beautiful gardens for you because Allah specifically stated to give 2/3 away to the daughters, and you gave away 16/27. Yes, yes, I know, it's not your fault. Allah's math makes it impossible to both follow the intent of his rules and follow the literal word of his rules. Hey, that's not my problem. I'm just pointing out the error. Either Allah can't do math or you're a bad Muslim. Period.

Omar said...

Apparently Muhammad didn't know what he was talking about either when he made up these verses. According to Omar, we need Shariah, Imams and Masters degrees to understand the simple arithmetic, and, well, Muhammad was illiterate.

Ali didn't have a masters degree, and everything he knew about Islam he learned from the Prophet Mohammad, yet he was immediately able to give the ruling using 'awl from the pulpit. It's not a clever scheme hatched by the centuries-old conspiracy of scholars to reconcile inconsistent texts, it was the ruling of Islamic law plain and simple.

Omar, I thought that "Allah makes clear to you"? I guess he didn't. You say Al-Awl normalization is the fix, but it's very existence as a fix demonstrates that Allah's math, as stated in the Quran, needs fixing. Simply put, the Quran is incorrect and imperfect.

correct and perfect does not mean literalist and comprehensive. This is exactly the kind of extremist methodology that has no place in religious understanding. No completely body of law, modern or ancient, is supposed to be interpreted this way. Go ask a lawyer whether American statutes are always understood completely literally or are all-inclusive of what we understand to be the law.


"don't you think Muslim scholars would have been the first to accuse each other of abandoning the faith?"
No, it does not matter if Muslim scholars still believe - that is not an argument against Quran's imperfection. It is an argument only for the success of brainwashing. You should realize that this is a red herring logical fallacy. You will also never question your belief in Muhammad's imaginary friend. You are brainwashed for good and will squirm your way through every Quran mistake - and there are a lot of them.


funny, we Muslims consider it reliable enough when Muslim scholars pick out the numerous weak hadiths, throw them out, attack the people who narrated them as unreliable. We have numerous accounts of scholars throwing out religious rulings and opinions for their violating the Quran, why not here too? 'Awl isn't the only way to not read the verses literally you could potentially come up with dozens of ways to reconcile, I wonder why nobody really objects to 'Awl? Probably because they understand the Quran and Islamic law better than you give them credit for.

Let's go through the one on this page:

Look Omar, when you give away 16/27 of the inheritance to the 3 daughters instead of 2/3, you are violating 4:13 :
These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement.
So no beautiful gardens for you because Allah specifically stated to give 2/3 away to the daughters, and you gave away 16/27. Yes, yes, I know, it's not your fault. Allah's math makes it impossible to both follow the intent of his rules and follow the literal word of his rules. Hey, that's not my problem. I'm just pointing out the error. Either Allah can't do math or you're a bad Muslim. Period.


Too bad your casual perusal of the English translation wasn't around to correct the centuries of consensus of brilliant scholars who devoted their lives to studying these verses! Your arrogance is absolutely amazing. You wouldn't go tell an American judge that he or she doesn't understand the Constitution, you would acknowledge that they have probably already considered your objection and have thought a few steps past you...

Silly Allah said...

You said: "It's not a clever scheme hatched by the centuries-old conspiracy of scholars to reconcile inconsistent texts, it was the ruling of Islamic law plain and simple."

Then why are there multiple sets of rules? Shia law (http://www.al-islam.org/laws/will.html#2779) claims that the solution is in remainders and residues, as does Zakir Naik (and SHAH). If it's Islamic law plain and simple, there should be one law. Better yet, the Quran shouldn't make mathematical mistakes to begin with. So...in this example, the Sunni fix gives 16/27 to the 3 daughers, the Shia fix gives the 3 daughters 13/36, while the Quran specifically states 2/3 ("if only daughters, 2 or more, their share is 2/3 of the inheritance").

You said "correct and perfect does not mean literalist and comprehensive. "

But it still means correct, right? If I simply follow the clear steps outlined in the Quran, it says to give away:
3 daughters: 2/3
2 parents: 1/6 + 1/6
2 wives: 1/8

Total = 9/8, which is more than exists. This is impossible and a simple, cut and dry math mistake. You have offered one (of at least 2) fixes because the Quran is unclear and with error.

You never answered my next set of points (instead gave a non sequitur about bad Hadiths) so I'll repeat:
"don't you think Muslim scholars would have been the first to accuse each other of abandoning the faith?"
No, it does not matter if Muslim scholars still believe - that is not an argument against Quran's imperfection. It is an argument only for the success of brainwashing. You should realize that this is a red herring logical fallacy. You will also never question your belief in Muhammad's imaginary friend. You are brainwashed for good and will squirm your way through every Quran mistake - and there are a lot of them.

You didn't answer this one either - you just used the weak analogy fallacy to talk about the US Constitution. You see, my friend, it is a fallacy because the US Constitution was written by men. You claim the Quran comes from the supernatural. As such it must pass a higher standard for perfection and clarity, especially when it claims in one of the very verses to be "clear to you." What's more, the US Constitution doesn't make math mistakes. Here again:

Let's go through the one on this page:

Look Omar, when you give away 16/27 of the inheritance to the 3 daughters instead of 2/3, you are violating 4:13 :
These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement.
So no beautiful gardens for you because Allah specifically stated to give 2/3 away to the daughters, and you gave away 16/27. Yes, yes, I know, it's not your fault. Allah's math makes it impossible to both follow the intent of his rules and follow the literal word of his rules. Hey, that's not my problem. I'm just pointing out the error. Either Allah can't do math or you're a bad Muslim. Period.

SHAH said...

How are you brothers?

The Sun Rotates

For a long time European philosophers and scientists
believed that the earth stood still in the centre of the universe and every other body including the sun moved around it. In the West, this geocentric concept of the universe was prevalent right from the time of Ptolemy in the second century B.C. In 1512, Nicholas Copernicus put forward his Heliocentric Theory of Planetary Motion, which asserted that the sun is motionless at the centre of the solar system with the
planets revolving around it.
In 1609, the German scientist Yohannus Keppler published the ‘Astronomia Nova’. In this he
concluded that not only do the planets move in elliptical orbits around the sun, they also rotate
upon their axes at irregular speeds. With this knowledge it became possible for European scientists to explain correctly many of the mechanisms of the
solar system, including the sequence of night and
day.
After these discoveries, it was thought that the Sun was stationary and did not rotate about its axis like the Earth. I remember having studied this fallacy from Geography books during my school days.
Consider the following Qur’anic verse:
“It is He Who created
the Night and the Day,
and the sun and the moon:
All (the celestial bodies)
swim along, each in its
rounded course.”
[Al-Qur’an 21:33]
Quran Explained the above system 1400 years ago. If In that period any one can't understand this Verse of Quran it doesn't mean Quran is Incorrect. Quran is error Free.

Respected Ali was wise and he has done what he deem fit and whatever he have done in that period was correct according to situation.

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - you're back!! I guess since you're switching discussion away from inheritance, I can assume you admit the mathematical mistake in the Quran? Or are you willing to drop your Shia fix to the mistake in favor of Omar's Sunni fix to the mistake? You realize, of course, that as soon Allah make's one math mistake, we need not go through any more discussion. One mistake in the Quran proves that it's not from a divine source.

Let's continue for the simple pleasure of it all because you brought up a very embarrassing set of mistakes for silly Allah. In fact, I've already gone through this error with Sheraz Alvi on a different thread - maybe I should make a blog post on this one also. Let's start with the verses and then go through some of what I told him:

021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
SHAKIR: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

021.031
YUSUFALI: And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.
PICKTHAL: And We have placed in the earth firm hills lest it quake with them, and We have placed therein ravines as roads that haply they may find their way.
SHAKIR: And We have made great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them, and We have made in it wide ways that they may follow a right direction.

021.032
YUSUFALI: And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!
PICKTHAL: And we have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.
SHAKIR: And We have made the heaven a guarded canopy and (yet) they turn aside from its signs.

021.033
YUSUFALI: It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

So let's explore this creation myth. Here's what Allah says: The earth and heavens were joined together as one. Then they split apart. Then, the earth was made with firm mountains that could shake and valleys in between. The heavens are a roof over the earth. The night and day is created by the sun and moon moving in a rounded course around the earth in the celestial sphere. Don't you see that this makes no sense? Here's some problems;
1. The universe is almost 10 billion years older than the earth - they were not created at the same time
2. The mountains are not standing firm except for a little shake, neither are the valleys. Any geologist will tell you that the mountains and valleys have been constantly changing. In fact the earliest dinosaurs saw only one continent, Pangea, rather than the 7 we see today. BTW, ever wonder why the Quran never mentions dinosaurs?
3. The universe is not a fixed roof surrounding the earth. It goes on for billions of light years.
4. The sun and moon do not orbit the earth. The moon orbits the earth and, together, they orbit the sun.
5. Orbiting has nothing to do with Night and Day! Orbiting affects the seasons. It is the earth's rotation on its own axis that is responsible for night and day.

You see, Muhammad was just repeating common, mistaken beliefs about the world. He believed the moon and sun orbited the earth. He didn't know that the earth rotated around its axis. So he (and his imaginary friend, Allah) ended up making lots of astronomy mistakes.

There are more verses that make my points so I listed them below:

By the sun and his brightness, And the moon when she followeth him ... S. 91:1-2

And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she returns like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. S. 36:39-40"

Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas? Is there any God beside Allah? Nay, but most of them know not! S. 27:61

"He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ... And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... S. 67:3, 5

And He completed them seven heavens in two days and inspired in each heaven its command; and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and rendered it guarded ... S. 41:12

We have indeed adorned the lower heaven with the beauty of the stars. S. 37:6 "

Some of these are funny - where are the moon's mansions? If the sun and the moon can't catch up, how do you get solar eclipses? The 7 heavens, LOL, you mean: Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn? He's just repeating Greco-Roman stuff, which is true about most of the "science" in the Quran. And "lamps" on the lower heaven...so this "lower" heaven includes galaxies that are farther away than the other heavens? Oh, and they are not "adorned" with lamps...the galaxy formation and star formation occurred as part of the Big Bang theory.

Anyway, besides the really silly stuff, you will notice the reinforced view that the "moon when she followeth" the sun in a circular orbit around the earth. This orbiting is used as a reason for day and night. Nowhere does it say the earth's rotation is responsible. You'll also noticed the mistaken concept of a the earth as "a fixed abode."

Again, there are many mistakes here made by Muhammad and his imaginary friend, Allah. Who taught Allah astrophysics and geology?

SHAH said...

1. The universe is almost 10 billion years older than the earth - they were not created at the same time

Where it is written in Quran that The Universe and the earth were created at the same time. Please Quote me the Verse.

2. The mountains are not standing firm except for a little shake, neither are the valleys. Any geologist will tell you that the mountains and valleys have been constantly changing. In fact the earliest dinosaurs saw only one continent, Pangea, rather than the 7 we see today. BTW, ever wonder why the Quran never mentions dinosaurs?

Brother Quran is the Book of Sign not the book of Science. And Allah have given many Sign for the disbeliever like you. All words is of Allah.

3. The universe is not a fixed roof surrounding the earth. It goes on for billions of light years.

Where it is written in Quran that The Universe is a Fixed roof surrounding the earth.

4. The sun and moon do not orbit the earth. The moon orbits the earth and, together, they orbit the sun.

Where it is written in Quran that sun and the moon Orbit the earth


5. Orbiting has nothing to do with Night and Day! Orbiting affects the seasons. It is the earth's rotation on its own axis that is responsible for night and day.
21:33" It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course."

The Arabic word used in the above verse is yasbahoon . This word is derived from the word sabaha. It carries with it the idea of motion that comes from any moving body. If you use this word for a person on the ground, it would not mean that he is rolling but would imply that he is walking or running. If you use this word for a person in water, it would not mean that he is floating but would imply that he is swimming. Similarly, if you use the word yasbah for a celestial body such as the sun, it would not only mean that it is flying through space but would also mean that it is rotating as it goes through space.

Even if you have the problem with the meaning of yasbhaboon
Then to understand the rotation see the sign given in the quran at
"He makes the Night
overlap the Day,and the Day
overlap the Night.”39:5
How can night overlap the Day and how can the day overlap the night it is because of rotation.


Some of these are funny - where are the moon's mansions? If the sun and the moon can't catch up, how do you get solar eclipses? The 7 heavens, LOL, you mean: Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn? He's just repeating Greco-Roman stuff, which is true about most of the "science" in the Quran. And "lamps" on the lower heaven...so this "lower" heaven includes galaxies that are farther away than the other heavens? Oh, and they are not "adorned" with lamps...the galaxy formation and star formation occurred as part of the Big Bang theory.

I think you don't know the meaning of catch up that's mean here collide each other.

No I don't mean that seven heaven is "Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn? "

Brother I think you don't want to seek the truth. You just want to say False against the Islam.
Even After my Clarification to Sura Nisa you are not accepting the truth


I love Allot every Human being and it is my wish from the inner core of my heart that you become a winner.
Winner in the sense that you pass the examination which is conducted by Allah for us in this universe and result of the examination will be declared on the day of Judgment.
Allah have send many prophet to help us in Qualifying the examination like Moses(pbuh),David (pbuh), Jesus(pbuh) and our last prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
I don't know which religion you Follow but almost in every Religion
about Muhammad(pbuh) is given.

When Jesus(pbuh) himself said that God is one and we must worship only one God then i don't from where the misconceptions arises between the human being. He went to Allah because no Men Believe in Him that he was a Prophet not the God. Now see it yourself that I am not telling a lie

John 16:5-16

"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father,where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. "

It is clearly mention that Jesus(pbuh) was going to Allah because Men Do not believe in him and here the sign of our Lovely Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is also Mentioned.

Now if you say that the word "he" is for the spirit of Jesus (pbuh)then you are wrong as Jesus(pbuh) is Alive as given in

John 20:27 [Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."]
Which mean that Jesus(pbuh) is alive and his soul is inside his Flesh body.
If you say that the word "he" is for soul of Jesus(pbuh), then you are trying to separate Soul from the body of Jesus(pbuh)or you are Killing our lovely Jesus(pbuh).


About Muhammad (pbuh) is also mentioned by name in Old Testament

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.


And the Quran have No Mistake. It is the word of Allah.

Brother truth will not knock your door again and again.

Please Seek the truth and truth will set you free.

I am writing this message last time to you not because i am hating you.
Still I love you as my Brother.
It is because you keep on saying wrong against Allah who had created you and me. I don't worship any creation of Allah but love all.


If any time you really want to seek the truth you can mail me at my Address. And don't forget what ever we earn here in this universe is all becomes useless when ever we die. I wish you live long and one day you realise the truth.

I will pray to Allah for you so that you may got the power of truth.

Take care...

Silly Allah said...

Oh SHAH - you are so brainwashed and you lie so easily. It's sad to see. BTW, you never responded to the comments about inheritance? Let me repeat:
I guess since you're switching discussion away from inheritance, I can assume you admit the mathematical mistake in the Quran? Or are you willing to drop your Shia fix to the mistake in favor of Omar's Sunni fix to the mistake? You realize, of course, that as soon Allah make's one math mistake, we need not go through any more discussion. One mistake in the Quran proves that it's not from a divine source.

Now, let's go through your lengthy post. I will try to expose all of your lies and errors, but I just may not have enough time today. Here we go...

1. The universe is almost 10 billion years older than the earth - they were not created at the same time
You wrote "Please Quote me the Verse," but I already did:
021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
SHAKIR: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

But let me add more:
41:9 to 41:11
Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask; Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

2:29
He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Why does Muhammad think the heavens were created after earth? The earth was created almost 10 billion years after the Big Bang.

2. The mountains are not standing firm except for a little shake, neither are the valleys. Any geologist will tell you that the mountains and valleys have been constantly changing. In fact the earliest dinosaurs saw only one continent, Pangea, rather than the 7 we see today. BTW, ever wonder why the Quran never mentions dinosaurs?

You wrote:"Brother Quran is the Book of Sign not the book of Science."
That I know :) So you accept then that the Quran erred when it said that the mountains are standing firm?

3. The universe is not a fixed roof surrounding the earth. It goes on for billions of light years.

You wrote:"Where it is written in Quran that The Universe is a Fixed roof surrounding the earth." I gave you the verse - do you feel ashamed when you lie so much? Here it is again:

021.032
YUSUFALI: And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!
PICKTHAL: And we have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.
SHAKIR: And We have made the heaven a guarded canopy and (yet) they turn aside from its signs.

And here are some more:

34.9
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).

6.35
If their spurning is hard on thy mind, yet if thou wert able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,- (what good?).

13.2
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.

Made the sky a roof? A piece of the sky to fall? A ladder to the sky? Raised the heavens without any pillars?

You know I don't blame Muhammad for not knowing anything more than the Greeks, after all it was the 7th century. OTOH, it is ludicrous to try and claim miracles when the mistakes are so obvious.

4. The sun and moon do not orbit the earth. The moon orbits the earth and, together, they orbit the sun.
You wrote "Where it is written in Quran that sun and the moon Orbit the earth " - You know very well:
021.033
YUSUFALI: It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

Let's add some more:
13.2
Allah is He who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see; is firmly established on the throne; He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs for a term appointed. He regulates the matter, explaining the signs in detail, so you can be certain of meeting with your Lord.

31.29
Don't you see that Allah merges night into day and he merges day into night and he has subjected the sun, and the moon each running its course for a term appointed. And Allah is aware of what you do.

36.36 - 39
Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things [...] And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. And as night occurs the sun goes of to its resting place, before returning the following day. And the moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns

16:12
And He hath made subject to you the Sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses; and the night and the day hath he (also) made subject to you.

39:5 He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?

So the sun and moon follow a "rounded course" for the "term appointed." That term is one day because "as night occurs the sun goes of to its resting place, before returning the following day." So, you see Allah thought the Sun appeared in the sky until night fell, then it followed it's round course until it hit its rested place and appeared the next day again. And you believe this crap?

5. Orbiting has nothing to do with Night and Day! Orbiting affects the seasons. It is the earth's rotation on its own axis that is responsible for night and day.
To this comment, you literally cut and pasted from this page: http://muslimways.com/the-qur-an-modern-science/the-sun-rotates.html
Well, go to here for a firm rebuttal: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Geocentric_Quran . I won't even cut and paste :)

As far as the whole "yasbahoon" baloney. Look, “Yasbahoon” means swim or float - which is why the three translations all say that. You then wrote - "if you use the word yasbah for a celestial body such as the sun, it would not only mean that it is flying through space but would also mean that it is rotating as it goes through space." Sorry, no go... it doesn't matter if the sun rotates...it is the earth that must rotate to make night and day happen!! Please, please learn some astronomy before you cut and paste from another's website.

Let's return to the translations...Pickthal is very clear: "And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit."

According to the Quran, the sun and moon create the night and day through their orbital motions. It says nothing about the earth causing night and day through it's rotation. This is wrong. Period.


You wrote this, "No I don't mean that seven heaven is "Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn? "

Well, ok then, what are the seven heavens? LOL Here, I'll help you...go here (http://www.planetnarnia.com/planet-narnia/the-seven-heavens ) for a glimpse of the ancient view of the seven heavens. Here's a quote:

"THE SEVEN HEAVENS
The seven planets of the old cosmology included the Sun (Sol) and the Moon (Luna), which we now don't regard as planets at all. The other five were Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

This old, geocentric view of the cosmos was overturned by the Polish astronomer, Copernicus, in the sixteenth century. He argued that, rather than Sol going round the Earth, as everyone had previously thought, it was actually the case that the Earth went round Sol. "

Check Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_heavenly_objects:
"In some cultures, the five naked-eye planets are grouped with the Sun and the Moon, called luminaries (meaning "shining object") to form a group of seven heavenly objects (or seven lights of the Earth, starry planets, traditional planets, etc.). Because their existence was known by many cultures throughout the world, since before recorded history, no discoverer is credited for them.

Most Western cultures refer to them by their Latin names in honor of the Roman pantheon and their number probably led to the naming of the seven-day week."

You see, Muhammad was just repeating ancient astronomy - he added nothing and he was wrong.

SHAH said...

Thanking you brother for writing me.

I have responded many time about Inheritance to you brother.
Tell me why should i speak a lie, does it give me any gain.
And one more thing I would like to clear you that I am not Shia and nor Sunni. I am only a Muslim.
And I worship only one God who had created the whole universe, i.e. Allah.
I am a follower of Adam(pbuh), Moses(pbuh),Jesus(pbuh),Muhammad(pbuh),etc.
in short I am follower of All the prophet send by Allah.

Respected Ali had made Al Awl.
But it doesn't prove that he said that Quran is having any error.

Now let me give an example again to make you Understand about Inheritance.

Example:
A man died and left
Debt $9000
2 parents
2 wives
3 daughters
Gross Inheritance $36000 (before payment of Debt.)

Solution:
As you now know that Quran specified the sequence of giving minimum share of members.
So the minimum Share of the member are as Follows

(a)Share of Wives= 1/8 X [$36000-$9000]= $27000/8= $3375
"As you know that share of wives is 1/8 of inheritance(after payment of debt and will)"
(b) Share of parents= 1/3X[$36000-$9000]=27000/3=$9000
"As you know that share of parents is 1/3 of inheritance(after payment of debt and will"
(c)Share of daughters=
2/3X[$36000-$9000-$3375-$9000]
=$9750
"As you know that share of daughters is 2/3 of inheritance which is not exactly after payment of debt and will but after payment of debt,will, share of wives, share of parents"

The solution at glance as follows
(a) Share of wives------$3375
(b) Share of parents----$9000
(c) share of daughters--$9750
(d) debt----------------$9000
(e)balance--------------$4875
Total--------------$36000

Now in the above solution if suppose wives want to relinquish their title or want to give their 1/9 of their minimum share to others then tell me who is going to stop them.
(which means that they want to have only $3000)

In this situation if Respected Ali distributed the whole money after payment of debt in this pattern then what is the problem.

(a) Money to wives $3000
(which is 1/9th of $27000)
(b)Money to parents $8000
(which is 8/27th of $27000)
(c)Money to daughters $16000
(which is 16/27 of $27000)

and from the above distribution you can see that Daughters are getting more than the minimum specified by the Quran i.e.$9750 so where is unjust to the daughters.

Even the minimum share of wives i.e $3375 not reached to the wives. The above calculation is correct as the wives want to relinquish $375.

There is not even a single mistake in Quran

Silly Allah said...

So, instead of responding to both issues, you chose one and made a fool of yourself?

Omar says there is only one Islamic law, but you give two contradictory fixes in one post! Allah says he "makes it clear to you," yet the mathematical mistakes are so bad that there are two fixes - Shia and Sunni! So Allah does not make it clear after all. Allah makes two mistakes: 1. He (or she) gives away more inheritance than exists 2. It is not clear to anybody, including you!

Here, "let me make it clear to you." Through many, many posts, you tried to justify the use of remainders and the ordering of calculations (the Shia fix). However, the Awl fix (or Sunni fix) to Allah's mistake does not respect the remainders and ordering that you tried to justify. The Awl fix thus demonstrates that you were wrong all along with your remainders and ordering fix. The two fixes are at odds with each other so you can't have it both ways. Actually, the Quran is at odds with both fixes because it says 2/3 to the daughters...you can't have it three ways, LOL

Sorry, you lost this one fair and square. You got nothing left because you disproved yourself.

Now can you please respond to all of Allah's astronomy and geology mistakes? I pointed out all of your lies and mistakes in a long comment.

SHAH said...

Thanking you for your devotion of truth. And thanking you for quoting me Good verses also


"1. The universe is almost 10 billion years older than the earth - they were not created at the same time"

Even I believe the same thing as you have written. But I had asked you where it is written in the Quran that the Earth and the Universe were created on the same day.



Brother no where it is written that Seven Heaven= Sun, moon, Saturn,etc.
So why you have a doubt over it.

Now you have said
"Why does Muhammad(pbuh) think the heavens were created after earth? The earth was created almost 10 billion years after the Big Bang."

You are absolutely correct that Muhammad(pbuh) said that 7 heavens were created after the earth created by Allah who is creator of all the creations.

And you have highlighted
2:29
He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Here the earth was converted into a heaven which means Allah has given all the power to the earth regarding fertility,etc. which is required to live.


2. The mountains are not standing firm except for a little shake, neither are the valleys. Any geologist will tell you that the mountains and valleys have been constantly changing. In fact the earliest dinosaurs saw only one continent, Pangea, rather than the 7 we see today. BTW, ever wonder why the Quran never mentions dinosaurs?

Brother Mountains are standing Firm. Do you have ever seen any mountain running on the road.
They constantly change but not move.


"3. The universe is not a fixed roof surrounding the earth. It goes on for billions of light years."

Thanking you brother for giving me the quotation which I required.
Now see what you have given.
21:32
And we have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

It is a very simple line where Allah was saying to us that he had created the sky a roof for us. Where it is written it is fixed to the earth.
Sky is called as a roof because it protect us from various dangerous Rays etc. if you have read in Science.

further you quoted
34.9
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).

The correct translation is as follows:
Have they not observed what is before them and what is behind them of the sky and the earth? If We will, We can make the earth swallow them, or cause obliteration from the sky to fall on them. Lo! herein surely is a portent for every slave who turneth (to Allah) repentant. (9)
Now you can understand what you have written wrong please don't quote me the translation done by Yusuf Ali.

6.35
If their spurning is hard on thy mind, yet if thou wert able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,- (what good?).

Brother in this verse of Quran
Allah said that no Prophet can do Miracles without the will of Allah to show the sign of Allah like "to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies "


13.2
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your.

Have you ever seen any pillar of earth or heaven.

But it is mentioned in Bible that Earth and heaven have Pillar that is Unscientific.
In Job 26:11
" The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke."

Thats mean heaven have pillars.
In the following verse of Bible you can check that Even the Earth have pillar.
1 book of Samuel 2:8
Book of Job 9:6
Book of Pslams 75:3
That is totally Unscientific.



4. The sun and moon do not orbit the earth. The moon orbits the earth and, together, they orbit the sun.

Brother no where in the Quran it is written that the sun and Moon do orbit the earth.
Sun do its Job and Moon do its Job.
Both Rotate in its orbit. And Earth Also rotate in its Orbit. And the rotation define the Day and night.
Now brother If I say that
The Sun rises from the East.
Scientifically the above sentence is incorrect. But we still say that the Sun rises from the east because it appear to us that sun rises from the east.

If Allah says to make us understand in the ancient period that Allah had made the system of rising of Sun. Then what is Incorrect.

"5it doesn't matter if the sun rotates...it is the earth that must rotate to make night and day happen!!"
You are absolutely correct brother it doesn't matter if the sun rotates ....

Brother my Topic was that the Sun Rotates. and I was telling you about the word "yasbahoon" which mean rotation when we use it with celestial body.

21:33" It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course."

Brother in this verse no where it is written that moon or sun cause day or night.
But it is written that Allah has created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. And all the celestial bodies swim along, each in its rounded course.

Earth is an celestial Body which also rotate.
But for the Day and the night 2 things are required
(a)Sun
(b)Rotated earth.
Hope you have understand the concept.


Now brother let me tell you about English language.
The word in English have different meanings let me give you an example

I saw a saw which could not saw.

In the above sentence I have used the word "saw" which have several meanings
(i) Cutting device
(ii) to cut
(iii) Past form of the word "see", etc.
Now the translation will be I saw a cutting device which could not cut.

Now you have given the meaning of seven heaven as seven heaven is equal to sun,moon,etc. which do not suit on the verse of Quran.

Allah has created the universe and Allah only knows better then us his creations.


Thanking you for writing your views to me.
May one day you can understand the meaning of Islam.

But brother can you do one home work to check these following error in Bible

Like
(A) Pslam 102:25-26 says that Heaven and Earth will perish.
Pslam 78:67 says that earth will never perish
(B) Ezra 2:65 says "they had 200 men and women singers."
Nehemiah 7:67 says "they also had 245 men and women singers."
(C)2 Kings 24:8 says "Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months.,"
2 Chronicles 36:9 says "Jehoiachin was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months and ten days."
(D)1 Kings 7:26 says, " It held two thousand baths."
2 Chronicles 4:5 says, " It held three thousand baths."
(E) 1 kings 15:33 says," In the third year of Asa king of Judah, Baasha son of Ahijah became king of all Israel in Tirzah, and he reigned twenty-four years."
2 Chronicles 16:1 says, "in the thirty-sixth year of Asa's reign Baasha king of Israel went up against Judah"., etc.

Please give me the clarifications of the above errors in the bible. As i know you have a great knowledge of all the religion.

And you also know that there is No Error in Quran.

Thanking you Brother
With best wishes for your happiness
Shah.

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - you are now making scientific errors in addition to lying about the Quran. Please, please read some science. Also, I am an atheist so I don't believe in the Jewish god or the Christian god. Quoting me mistakes from the Bible only embarrasses you not me because it demonstrates that you have a double standard. You are easily able to see errors in the Bible, but are too brainwashed to see them in the Quran. They are both wrong, my friend. Wake up!

Now, when I look at your last post, you mostly squirmed around the answers instead of addressing issues. Therefore, I will highlight where you avoided issues.

1. I gave you a number of verses that showed Allah creating the heavens after the earth, yet you believe that the earth was created after the heavens. Your view contradicts the Quran - no paradise for you :)

2. I gave you sufficient evidence to show that Muhammad was just repeating Greco-Roman seven heavens ancient views. You assert they are wrong, but refuse to actually say what the seven heavens are. Please don't avoid this question. The Quran said that Allah built the seven heavens - what did he build? (Hint - check out Greco-Roman science)

3.You wrote "Brother Mountains are standing Firm...They constantly change but not move."

This is wrong, they do move. The mountains have been continuously moving for millions of years. Glaciers have cut (and continue to cut) right through mountains, changing the landscape. Seas, rivers and wind erode mountains and change the shape of things. Simply put, the Earth is not static and never has been. Allah could not have been more wrong. Here's some links for you to begin your education:
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/collision.html
" Our earth is truly a dynamic and ever-changing planet. The distribution of oceans and continents, mountains and valleys, deltas and deserts, are constantly changing."
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hsw/6180-mountains-of-fire-continental-drift-video.htm

4. You wrote "Sky is called as a roof because it protect us from various dangerous Rays etc. "

Wrong, it's not a roof. There is no fixed layer in the sky to call a "roof," it's a continuous, gradually changing environment as you go up and up. Please, please learn some science. You have spent so much time with Muhammad's 7th century view that you don't even understand basic science.

Here are three translations:

034.009
YUSUFALI: See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
PICKTHAL: Have they not observed what is before them and what is behind them of the sky and the earth? If We will, We can make the earth swallow them, or cause obliteration from the sky to fall on them. Lo! herein surely is a portent for every slave who turneth (to Allah) repentant.
SHAKIR: Do they not then consider what is before them and what is behind them of the heaven and the earth? If We please We will make them disappear in the land or bring down upon them a portion from the heaven; most surely there is a sign in this for every servant turning (to Allah).

Pickthal and Shakir both talk about the sky falling. In fact, even your translation talks about the sky falling. This is physically impossible and another error by Muhammad. He thought the sky was a roof and could fall like one.

Muhammad even thought you can have a ladder to the sky. If so, where does "the sky" start? At what altitude? It doesn't. This is an ancient, faulty view and Muhammad believed it like any 7th century desert dweller.

Sorry, this one is so obvious even you avoided dealing with it, LOL. Allah is so silly - sky as roof, sky falling, ladders to the sky. I really am laughing now.

5. The Quran never talks about the earth's rotation. You're not being honest with me or yourself SHAH. Allah thought the sun and mooon's movement corresponded to the day and night. He did not know the earth was rotating because he thought it was "firm" and "without pillars." It's so obviously wrong a child can see it.

You completely avoided all the text that talked about the sun's resting place and the one day period. The sun has no "resting place," and it's orbit period is not one day! This is just science fiction that Muhammad made up.

If you have to lie and avoid questions in order to defend Islam - how can it be the one true religion? Please SHAH - face facts and learn some science.

SHAH said...

Thanking you brother for replying me.

Brother I have already explain you that the Quran specified the minimum Share of members. It doesn't mean that the member can't receive more than that minimum share. And also there is no restriction that the member can't relinquish his title.
Brother may I know, why are you adding two words i.e. Sunni Fix and Shia fix. in calculation?
Quran have no Mistake.




Brother I told you earlier that there is the possibility of error in translation of Quran but it doesn't mean Quran have errors.

Brother you have given me the following verses
021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
"He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ... And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... S. 67:3, 5

And He completed them seven heavens in two days and inspired in each heaven its command; and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and rendered it guarded ... S. 41:12

and you have doubt with the word "heaven".

Brother here heaven means Sky or universe.
Earth mean land or planet
And I have read translation in my mother tongue which also use sky word.
See the meaning in
www.dictionary.com

If you have read the Big Bang which means
The whole universe was initially one big mass(Primary Nebula).Then there was a ‘Big Bang’ (Secondary Separation) which resulted in the formation of Galaxies. These then
divided to form stars, planets, the sun, the moon,etc.
And the following verse says the same thing i.e. the Big Bang theory.
“Do not the Unbelievers see
that the heavens and the earth
were joined together (as one
unit of Creation), before
We clove them asunder?”
[Al-Qu’ran 21:30]

Now you have understand that there was only one unit before Bang.
It mean that unit include all the components. That also mean there was certain component of earth also there before the bang in that Unit.
Or we can say whole earth or land or planet was the part of that one unit before the Bang.

To make you understand let us take an example.
Suppose I create a Iron Hammer from Iron ore. And I said to you that "previously this hammer was the part of Iron Ore."
The above sentence is absolutely correct because before creation of Hammer the part of hammer or complete hammer was in that Iron ore from which i have created the Hammer.

Now Further I told you that seven heaven is not equal to the sun,the moon,the Saturn,etc. Because these are seven Skies or universe as per Quran and created by Allah.

I know currently it is beyond the limit of science to test it but it was created by Allah and that is true.

2.“And We have set on the earth
mountains standing firm,
lest it should shake with them.”
[Al-Qur’an 21:31]


Brother in the above verse it is written that Allah had set on the earth mountains standing firm at the time of earth's creation.

The surface of the earth is broken into many rigid plates that are about 100 km in thickness. These
plates float on a partially molten region called aesthenosphere.
And brother As you know that the mountain have deep roots
Mountain formations occur at the boundary of the plates. The earth’s crust is 5 km thick below oceans, about 35 km thick below flat continental surfaces and almost 80 km thick below great mountain ranges. These are the strong foundations on which
mountains stand. The Qur’an refers to the strong mountain foundations in the following verse:
“And the mountains
hath He firmly fixed.”
[Al-Qur’an 79:32]

Thus, the information contained in the Glorious Qur'an about the nature of mountains, is in perfect
agreement with recent discoveries in geology.

Brother you have further educated me that the Mountains also moves.
It is absolutely correct but doesn't mean that mountain are not firmly stand on the earth.
There are many uses of mountain also like we cut mountain to make our Roads, dams, Tunnel, etc.
But the main purpose of the mountain is to remove the shaking of Earth.

And at last about your doubt regarding mountain I would like to say you that
It is only written that
Allah had created mountains as standing Firm on Earth at the time of Earth's creation.

Which mean mountain can change or move by us or by the order of Allah afterward.

3."Wrong, it's not a roof. There is no fixed layer in the sky to call a "roof," it's a continuous, gradually changing environment as you go up and up. Please, please learn some science. You have spent so much time with Muhammad's 7th century view that you don't even understand basic science."
Brother the roof word not only used when there is a fixed layer, there are many uses of the word roof.
Like we can say

The Himalayas are the roof of the world.

My parents are my roof.

Islam is a roof which will protect us from Hell.

Brother you please see dictionary for more use of the word 'roof'

also see www.dictionary.com


"5. The Quran never talks about the earth's rotation. You're not being honest with me or yourself SHAH. Allah thought the sun and mooon's movement corresponded to the day and night. He did not know the earth was rotating because he thought it was "firm" and "without pillars." It's so obviously wrong a child can see it."

Brother I have already quote you this verse
“It is He Who created
the Night and the Day,
and the sun and the moon:
All (the celestial bodies)
swim along, each in its
rounded course.”
[Al-Qur’an 21:33]
In which I told you that earth also rotates in its orbit, so there is no question that i hadn't tell you about the earth rotation in Quran.

6. Pickthal and Shakir both talk about the sky falling. In fact, even your translation talks about the sky falling. This is physically impossible and another error by Muhammad(pbuh). He thought the sky was a roof and could fall like one."

Brother Sky include many things like planets, stars, stone, etc.
Allah is talking about above mentioned things which are the part of Sky.
I know you have a common sense to understand what is written above.
So there is No Error relating to it.

7.You completely avoided all the text that talked about the sun's resting place and the one day period. The sun has no "resting place," and it's orbit period is not one day! This is just science fiction that Muhammad(pbuh) made up.

brother you have quoted this verse.
036.038
PICKTHAL: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
That is only a Error done by Pickthal in translation. See other translation as follows:

YUSUFALI: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

SHAKIR: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Muhsin Khan
36:38. And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
See for it:
http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/
36:38. And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
See:http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/36.htm


Now I think you have understand your all misconceptions about the Quran. If still there is any misconception keep writing me brother.

And I have a one personal Question For you brother
Why you have made your website only against the Islam?
What are your benefits in making website against Islam?
Take care.
With best wishes
Shah

SHAH said...

How are you Brother?
Its a new Beginning of Hope, Prosperity & Happiness. bouquet of Prayers, Love and Faith. Wishing you and your loved ones a joyful and prosperous
New Year 2009
With love
Shah

Hey brother I am also waiting for your replies

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - you have to be kidding, right? You again avoided the issues. What does that say about you? What does that say about Islam?

Let's go through it.

On the clear mathematical inheritance mistake made by silly Allah - you completely avoided the subject. Allah is giving away more inheritance than exists - 9/8 to be exact. That is one issue. The second issue is that Allah says he "makes it clear to you," yet the verses are so unclear that there are two attempted fixes to Allah's error.

If you follow Allah's words, he says "if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance"...so 2/3rds of the inheritance goes to the daughters just like Allah said.

Now, the Sunni and Shia Muslims both realized the mistake, and went about fixing it 2 different ways.

The Shia fix (which can be seen here: http://www.al-islam.org/laws/will.html#2779 ) proposes the Residues/Remainders fix that I mention in the original post on this page. I call it the Shia fix because it is both a part of Shia law and a part of Shia tradition. If you go to a Shia geographic region, this is the fix that you will see practiced most often.

The Sunni fix is Al-awl (also seen on this page). When Omar talks about the "one law," he is referring to the one Sunni law probably because Sunnis don't consider Shia as real Muslims (just check comments across my blog and you will find at least one Sunni making exactly this statement). Anyway, if you go to a Sunni neighborhood or talk to a Sunni imam, they will use Al-awl as the fix just as is written in Sunni books of jurisprudence.

You really didn't know that Sunni and Shia fixed Allah's error differently?

------

On Allah's astronomy, physics and geology mistakes...

You avoided the question of Allah creating heavens in the wrong order, has a sky held up by invisible pillars, contemplates a sky that could fall, and even created 7 heavens(!). When are you going to tell us what the seven heavens are? Again, I gave you good evidence to show you what they are - Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. What is your explanation of silly Allah's astronomy? What are the seven heavens? Why do "lamps" adorn the lowest heaven when the universe is billions of light years across? Are shooting stars really jinns:

Q. 72: 8
“And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
9.
And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him;"

Q. 37: 6/10
”We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,
(For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,

(So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,
Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.

Q. 67: 5
“And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.”



While we're at it, what are the seven earths?

Sahih Al-Bukhari

Narrated Muhammad bin Ibrahim bin Al-Harith:

from Abu Salama bin 'Abdur-Rahman who had a dispute with some people on a piece of land, and so he went to 'Aisha and told her about it. She said, "O Abu Salama, avoid the land, for Allah's Apostle said, ‘Any person who takes even a span of land unjustly, his neck shall be encircled with it down seven earths.’" (Volume 4, Book 54, Number 417; see also Numbers 418, 420; Volume 3, Book 43, Numbers 632-634)

Narrated 'Abdullah:

A (Jewish) Rabbi came to Allah's Apostle and he said, "O Muhammad! We learn that Allah will put all the heavens on one finger, and the earths on one finger, and the trees on one finger, and the water and the dust on one finger, and all the other created beings on one finger. Then He will say, ‘I am the King.’" Thereupon the Prophet smiled so that his pre-molar teeth became visible, and that was the confirmation of the Rabbi. Then Allah's Apostle recited: ‘No just estimate have they made of Allah such as due to Him.’ (39.67) (Volume 6, Book 60, Number 335)


Sahih Muslim

Muhammad b. Ibrahim said that Abu Salama reported to him that there was between him and his people dispute over a piece of land, and he came to 'A'isha and mentioned that to her, whereupon she said: Abu Salama, abstain from getting this land, for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He who usurps even a span of land would be made to wear around his neck seven earths. (Book 010, Number 3925; see also Numbers 3920-3924)


Oh, and then you made a big mistake buy cutting and pasting the science fiction about the Big Bang being in the Quran (yes it was a cut and paste as any reader can tell by quoting your text in a Google search). You lost this one before you started. The earth was not created in the Big Bang...not even an itsy bitsy part. There was no nucleosynthesis, not even baryon creation, in the first 10^-35 seconds of the bang when most of the mass energy was created...but not in the form that you and I see it. You are so wrong, and you don't even understand it (Read up on Big Bang in Wikipedia and also "Cosmic Inflation"). The earth was created over 9 billion years after the Big Bang started. So the universe and heavens could not be "joined together (as one unit of Creation)" and the "clove asunder" part just makes no sense whatsoever. Friend, you need to start reading works by real scientists and not fake scientists/imams, LOL. You sound as silly as Allah!

This is just completely wrong:
"These are the strong foundations on which mountains stand. The Qur'an refers to the strong mountain foundations in the following verse:
"And the mountains
hath He firmly fixed."
[Al-Qur'an 79:32]"

Mountains form and mountains disappear. There are no "strong mountain foundations" that stand the test of time for the entire earth. The plates are constantly moving and mountains keep changing. I gave you links for the science and you respond with silly religious junk. Sorry, Allah was just plain wrong on this one and all you need is a junior high school education to realize it.

Let's keep going:

You said, "In which I told you that earth also rotates in its orbit, so there is no question that i hadn't tell you about the earth rotation in Quran."

Great, so you admit that Muhammad didn't know the earth's rotation caused night and day? That Muhammad thought it was the sun orbiting the earth, then going to its resting place? Let's see what the Hadith and Ibn Kathir have to say, ok?

Sahih Al-Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" (36.38)

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:--
‘And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed),’ (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath Allah's Throne."


Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: ‘And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by ‘Abdullah.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 528:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet regarding the Verse:--'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term decreed for it.' (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Sahih Muslim

Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.

Now, Ibn Kathir's commentary on S. 36:38:

There are two views over the meaning of the phrase ...

(on its fixed course for a term (appointed).) (The first view) is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, BEYOND the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the ROOF of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is a dome supported by legs or pillars, carried by the angels, and it is ABOVE the universe, ABOVE the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to the Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. At that point it prostrates and asks permission to rise, as mentioned in the Hadiths.

SHAH - read it...it makes no sense, LOL. Ibn Kathir revealed exactly what Muhammad was thinking. Muhammad just repeated the same junk that others in the 7th century believed...that the sky is a roof, that there are seven heavens: Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn, that the stars are sitting in the lower part of the roof to light up the sky and shoot at jinns (supernatural silly bad guys), the heavens are supported by invisible pillars, that day and night were caused by the sun coming up and going down, orbiting the earth. Also, that the earth (or 7 of them) were fixed...even the mountains are fixed. All of your apologizing for this nonsense won't make it real, but let's keep going.

So please go through all seven of my objections again. You have nothing new and now have even more to explain: 8. why the Quran contradicts the Big Bang, 9. how jinns are hurt by shooting stars and 10. how the stars are "lamps" to "adorn" the "lower heaven."

Sorry it took so long to approve and respond as I have been taking a break with family during New Years.

As to this question:
"Why you have made your website only against the Islam?"

There are many reasons. Well, let's start with this one - you wrote "he [Muhammad] had sex with 9 year old girl. What is the problem with it?" I think pedophilia is sick and you don't because you're Muslim. You need to believe that Muhammad didn't make any mistakes, so you are ok with pedophilia, murder, hatred, racism, violent sexism, slavery, etc. etc. I am not.

SHAH said...

Thanking you brother for replying me.
With due respect I would like to say that:
Brother there is no mistake in Quran.
Quran is the word of Allah which have no mistake and Al-awl was not created by Allah So we can't blame to Allah that Allah did the mistake.
And as you know it is clearly mention in the Quran the pattern of giving minimum share of member at the time of inheritance where there is no error.

If you read only 1/3,2/3 and 1/8 figure then that is your problem. As for understanding the concept you have read at least whole line.
If you read only words then that is only a nonsense brother.

Now let me take a example

Your innocent Father has killed a terrorist.

If policemen read only two words above i.e. "Father" and "killed"

The policemen will hang your father till death or give him life punishment.

But if the policemen read whole sentence that you father has killed a terrorist they will award your father.

So it is up to you to read complete sentence and then understand the concept or just come to conclusion of your hypothesis.

And brother further you have written this
"As to this question:
"Why you have made your website only against the Islam?"

There are many reasons. Well, let's start with this one - you wrote "he [Muhammad] had sex with 9 year old girl. What is the problem with it?" I think pedophilia is sick and you don't because you're Muslim. You need to believe that Muhammad didn't make any mistakes, so you are ok with pedophilia, murder, hatred, racism, violent sexism, slavery, etc. etc. I am not."



It is the tradition of child marriage from the ancient time even your and my ancestor has done the child marriage.
The tradition was also in America
see the scope of child marriage
at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

If you feel that your ancestor has done the mistake then you can write against them also if you have no respect for them.
And the marriage of Muhammad(pbuh) was valid as both Muhammad(pbuh) and respected Aisha were agree to do marriage.
And at that period there was no objection on such marriage as all people usually do that.

Islam is against terrorism, slavery, hatred,etc.
Islam is the religion of peace.
And let me tell you the uses of Violence.

Mr X killed your innocent family member for money.

And Policemen hanged Mr X till death.
Both the above sentence have violence but if you see the first sentence it is a criminal activity and if you see the next sentence it is just activity.

And Islam allow Violence only when there is just or right or for peace.

Now let me give you another example to make you understand Violence allowed in Islam.

As you 9/11 case where lots of innocent 100s of individual were kill that type of Violence is prohibited in Islam.
And you Also know that American Government had killed millions of Innocent people in
(a)Japan
(b)Iraq
(c)Afghanistan,etc.
that is also prohibited in Islam.
If a Muslim killed innocent person without any cause or he even torture the innocent person we can't say that is the part of Islam as he is doing a sin which is prohibited in Islam.
Islam says not to speak lie but if a Muslim speak lie we can't say that Islam is wrong.
Islam is Always correct if correctly understand and follow also.

Violence is only allow if you want save any innocent person or to save your life, etc. which must be Fair.

So if you want to write against the Violence all the person who so ever involve in terrorism. But not against Islam.


Now I have already told you that Seven heaven is seven Skies and i don't know why are you adding your wrong views which is not written in Quran.
And you also know that the sky which we see is adorned with millions of lamps or stars so from where you got the confusion.

Now you also given me this verse

Q. 72: 8
“And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
9.
And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him;"


Where it is written that Jinn are shooting stars.
Read carefully brother and then ask me the problem over it.

and you have posted me the following quotation also
"Sahih Al-Bukhari

Narrated Muhammad bin Ibrahim bin Al-Harith:

from Abu Salama bin 'Abdur-Rahman who had a dispute with some people on a piece of land, and so he went to 'Aisha and told her about it. She said, "O Abu Salama, avoid the land, for Allah's Apostle said, ‘Any person who takes even a span of land unjustly, his neck shall be encircled with it down seven earths.’"


In the above quotation Respected Aisha is telling about the punishment in hell to a person who takes even a span of land unjustly.
Seven earth means seven lands.

When I told you brother that earth was created at the time of big bang.
And thing you have confusion with word "day".
let me explain you the word "day"
if I put you in front of Sun can you tell when the day will be end.
A day on earth takes 12 hours approx. But a Day at Sun will when the Sun will end.
So please understand the concepts and don't do hypothesis by your own.


Brother i told you all about mountains. It is the mountain which is jointing our different layers of lands. If you want to say that there is no role of mountain then may be your city moves from one place to another.
And answer me that why there is no fast movement of land layers when there is no involvement of mountains.
And you have also quoted that
Sahih Al-Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to..."

Above sentence doesn't prove that Muhammad (pbuh) doesn't know that earth rotates.

I know Earth rotates, you Know earth rotates.
But still we say that "Sun rises from east" is it a incorrect sentence?
The answer is No as we both know that it appear that sun rises from east.
And the same sentence is usually written by all the newspaper and even said by the scientist. Does this mean that the newspaper and the scientist are Incorrect.
All are correct all know that the Day and night caused by sun and it is due to the rotation of earth.
But still we say the sun rises fro earth because any one can see it from his open eyes that sun rises from east.

So brother ask me or allege mistake against Islam if you really have any solid prove and use your logic and common sense before posting. so that our conversation become fruitful.


And at last brother I would like ask you certain questions as you are atheist.

Q Why earth is rotating? why not it is collided with the sun which have its own gravity.?
Q A car is created by human being,
A pencil is created by human Being
Who is the creator of Universe?


Take care

Silly Allah said...

You're hilarious SHAH - you post logical fallacy after logical fallacy. You make up lies. You obfuscate details. You make simple math mistakes and you contradict yourself.

"Quran is the word of Allah which have no mistake and Al-awl was not created by Allah So we can't blame to Allah that Allah did the mistake."

Can you not see the obvious circular reasoning fallacy:
1. Allah can't make a mistake
2. The Quran is from Allah
3. There is no Quran mistake

LOL :) Wake up SHAH - this is circular logic!

Also, you are now contradicting yourself. This is what I love about public forums instead of emails. When Muslims are caught in lies and contradictions, everybody can go back and see it. The history remains. I invite all the readers to go above and note where SHAH says, "In this situation if Respected Ali distributed the whole money after payment of debt in this pattern then what is the problem." If you follow, he also follows that up with a mathematical proof, after which he says, "Even the minimum share of wives i.e $3375 not reached to the wives. The above calculation is correct as the wives want to relinquish $375." He only now realizes that two fixes to one error invalidates both fixes because it removes any validity to either fix. Simply put, if one fix could be conclusively proven as correct, there wouldn't be two. SHAH didn't even know that the fixes were associated with Shia and Sunni sects. Since he has probably realized that, as a Shia, he has to go with that solution, he now claims Al-Awl to be a "mistake." Well, sorry, the contradiction has already been exposed. As a reminder: to fix the error, the Sunnis distribute the shares proportionally according to the Quran, but not exactly so, for example, the Sunni fix gives 16/27 to the 3 daughers. The Shia fix orders the distribution with fractions applied to remainders...this gives the 3 daughters 13/36, while the Quran specifically states 2/3 ("if only daughters, 2 or more, their share is 2/3 of the inheritance") No beautiful gardens for you because the Quran does not say 13/36, it says 2/3.

BTW, Omar said that Al-Awl was part of the "perfection of Shariah" and "ruling of Islamic law plain and simple" - so is he full of it or you? I have an easier answer - you both are trying hard to defend a simple, math error by Allah with two different fixes. Neither fix is justified by any words in the Quran, and, in fact, are contradicted by the Quran.

Then you follow this up with a clear lie:
"And as you know it is clearly mention in the Quran the pattern of giving minimum share of member at the time of inheritance where there is no error."

OK, if it is clearly mentioned - where it is mentioned? Nowhere. You already admitted this. You tried to interpret words in one translation to make it work, but even that failed when I gave you many more translations. Even Al-Awl doesn't accept your remainders and residues approach so I'm not the only one. In fact, many ex-Muslim websites talk about this very error. Wake up.

Read the post at the very top of the page. Allah made two mistakes - 1. He tries to give away more inheritance than exists 2. He says he "makes it clear to you" but it is so unclear that there are two (!) fixes to his error. You have not addressed the first, and you haven't even tried to address the second!
----
I'll ignore your false analogy fallacy, however I will briefly discuss your tu quoque ("you too!") fallacy about Muhammad's pedophilia. For all readers, you can click on the previous link to get up to speed on the verses describing Muhammad's disgusting behavior.

As to your "your ancestors did it too" fallacy - that is wrong as I show with this page in Common responses from Muslims on Aisha . Let's remember this is not about the marriage of 51 year old Muhammad to 6 year old Aisha as symbolic child marriages don't always consummate. This is about the the sexual intercourse between 54 year old Muhammad and a doll-playing, 9 year old Aisha. Moreover, Muhammad essentially provides more evidence for the lack of a supernatural Allah with these actions:

"Here's the main problem with "Mohammad was a victim of the times" excuse. Besides the fact that we demonstrated the excuse to be false (sex with 9 year olds was not customary), it also demonstrates the lack of a divine Allah. If there really were an omniscient, omnipotent being and a prophet named Mohammad, the duo would've created a religion for all times and Mohammad would've set an example for all times. A true divinely inspired prophet sets the custom not follows the custom. Mohammad's pedophilia justified pedophilia for ages and continues to justify it today. His example emboldened pedophiles in Muslim countries until this day. If Allah exists, he should be ashamed. "

---

Now on to Allah's stupid astronomy...

You start off with your typical dishonesty by only quoting one of the verses I provided about Jinns and meteors. I sent you these:

Q. 72: 8
“And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
9.
And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him;"

Q. 37: 6/10
”We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,
(For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,
(So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,
Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.

Q. 67: 5
“And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.”

So you tell me what it says, LOL! While we're at it, do you believe in Jinns as the prophet did? Do you piss in holes? I hope not because Jinn hang out there:

Hadith - Ahmad, an-Nasa'i, Dawud, al-Hakim and al-Baihaqi
Qatadah related from 'Abdullah ibn Sarjas who said, "The Messenger of Allah forbade urination into a hole." Said Qatadah, "What is disliked about urinating into a hole?" Said he, "It is the residence of the jinn." [Ibn Khuzaimah and Ibn as-Sakin classified it as sahih]

Relatedly, do you believe that Satan pisses in your ear when you sleep late?

Bukhari Volume 2, Book 21, Number 245:
Narrated 'Abdullah :
A person was mentioned before the Prophet (p.b.u.h) and he was told that he had kept on sleeping till morning and had not got up for the prayer. The Prophet said, "Satan urinated in is ears."

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 492:

Narrated 'Abdullah:
It was mentioned before the Prophet that there was a man who slept the night till morning (after sunrise). The Prophet said, "He is a man in whose ears (or ear) Satan had urinated."

Sorry, I couldn't stop laughing, but I got ahead of myself. So, going back to Jinn - why don't you tell us what it says. Be careful, I will check the scholars ;)

Let's continue...You still have not answered the issue about the sun prostrating itself under the throne until the next day. You just brushed it off telling me "A day on earth takes 12 hours approx. But a Day at Sun will when the Sun will end.
So please understand the concepts and don't do hypothesis by your own."

HAHAHA!! First off, a day is 24 hrs. Second, you lecture me on understanding concepts when you've made math errors, science errors and now you don't even know the length of a day. SHAH, you should start reading some real science books instead of the Quran! LOL OK, and can you explain what this means? "But a Day at Sun will when the Sun will end." As far as I can tell it's meaningless. Are you talking about the rotation of the sun? the orbit of the sun? And, btw, when are you going to admit that the Quran doesn't know that the earth rotates for day and night to occur? You wrote, "I know Earth rotates, you Know earth rotates" - but silly Allah doesn't know the earth rotates. The burden of proof is on you, and I've not only shown every one of your attempts to be false but, with every attempt, I've uncovered more science fiction in the Quran and Hadith. When will you wake up?

Again, where is the throne? Ibn Kathir is pretty clear and he's a scholar - was he wrong in his interpretation made before modern science? Are you just trying hard to fit a 7th century flawed document in with modern science? You see it all worked until people realized Muhammad was just plain wrong. Let's just repeat the whole thing since you so dishonestly avoided it all:

Sahih Al-Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" (36.38)

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:--
‘And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed),’ (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: ‘And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by ‘Abdullah.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 528:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet regarding the Verse:--'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term decreed for it.' (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Sahih Muslim

Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.

Now, Ibn Kathir's commentary on S. 36:38:

There are two views over the meaning of the phrase ...

(on its fixed course for a term (appointed).) (The first view) is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, BEYOND the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the ROOF of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is a dome supported by legs or pillars, carried by the angels, and it is ABOVE the universe, ABOVE the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to the Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. At that point it prostrates and asks permission to rise, as mentioned in the Hadiths.

Also, what happened to your whole Big Bang thing? Did you just drop that because you realized you were wrong? That the earth is too young (approximately 4.5 billion years old) to have been created at the Big Bang (13.7 billion years). Did you get confused reading about Cosmic Inflation and the Big Bang?

Then, after all of your mistakes and dishonesty, you had the audacity to ask some questions of me. I was going to ignore them, but then I started to laugh because they demonstrated your ignorance of modern science:
Q Why earth is rotating? why not it is collided with the sun which have its own gravity.?
The answer to the first question is an artifact left over from the early solar system. The gas, dust and other materials in the early solar system had some angular momentum. If you had any understanding of meta-stable systems, you would have been surprised if the earth didn't rotate (that is the low probability situation).

The second question is just hilarious - you really don't know? Newton knew this centuries ago! Read up in some books, but the easiest way to explain it to somebody who doesn't understand any science is that the earth already has momentum. It wants to go straight (away from the sun), but gravity pulls it in and changes it's direction, then it tries to go straight again, then it get's pulled in again and it's direction is changed, etc. etc. These pulls happen at infinitesimally small times, leaving behind the curve of the orbit. If, and only if, the earth had no momentum and was sitting still, it would crash into the sun. Seriously, you need to put down the Quran and read up on some real science.

Q A car is created by human being,
A pencil is created by human Being
Who is the creator of Universe?

This one is funny - who created the "Who" in your question? and who created that who? To you, who created Allah? You are revealing the fallacy in your own logic. If you are serious about learning science, read up on Alan Guth and Cosmic Inflation, or Stephen Hawking and the Instanton solution. In short, there is no need for a creator. Only your human mind needs one to feel better. BTW, even if you did believe in a creator - you become nothing more than a Deist. There are Deists who believe in a creator, but that doesn't prove the Islam in any way. Wake up!

Silly Allah said...

oh, I almost missed this:
"Brother i told you all about mountains. It is the mountain which is jointing our different layers of lands. If you want to say that there is no role of mountain then may be your city moves from one place to another.
And answer me that why there is no fast movement of land layers when there is no involvement of mountains."

Why are you so dishonest SHAH? Muhammad (and his imaginary friend Allah) claim in the Quran that the mountains are standing firm, yet they aren't firm. You must've finally read the sources I gave you because it appears you now know I'm right. So instead of questioning your flimsy belief system and submission to a god that doesn't exist, you dishonestly try to avoid the error. The error is not about whether the mountains change quickly ("fast movement") or slowly. It is whether they change at all. Also, to answer your questions, plate movements create mountains not the other way around. What Islamist website did you get that from? Again, read some science books instead.

The Quran says that the mountains are fixed or firm and they are not. So stop with your logical fallacies, and admit that there is no way around this error.

SHAH said...

Thanking you brother with due respect.

Brother you are confusing yourself only.
There is no contradiction between Al-Awl and Sura Nisa.
Al- Awl was created by our respected Ali(May peace be upon him) according to the situation of that time, where wives were ready to relinquish their 1/9 share of their minimum share [1/8 share of Inheritance (after payment of debt and will)]
So there is no conflict at all as we all know that Ali(may peace be upon him) was very wise.
And you have said
[

OK, if it is clearly mentioned - where it is mentioned? Nowhere. You already admitted this. You tried to interpret words in one translation to make it work, but even that failed when I gave you many more translations. Even Al-Awl doesn't accept your remainders and residues approach so I'm not the only one. In fact, many ex-Muslim websites talk about this very error. Wake up."
]


Brother many non-belivers of Islam use to belive that
(a) Moon as their God.
(b) Sun as their God.
(c) Human are God.
(d) Earth is Flat.
(e) Tree are non-living things, etc.

Are you going to believe the things written above because some people use to belive that or you will seek the truth.
If you have a doubt in Quran then you need to study carefully the Quran not what other people used to believe.



And you wrote about Mountain that mountain are not standing Firm,
I think you have never seen the mountain.
There are 1000s of mountain which are standing Firm on the earth even after many years passed away after earth's creation.

Quran only says that Allah had created Mountain as standing Firm at the time of earth's creation. Quran never says that it can't move or it can't perish.
Whatever created in this earth have to perish one day.

Quran says in 55:26
"Whatever is on it. (the earth) will perish "

Which mean that mountain will also perish or moved.

So brother what is your confusion.
This prove that Quran is not conflicting with science but it is only your confusion. So please read science and Quran so that you can understand the things easily.
A person who have little common sense can understand this.

Now Further you said against our Muhammad(pbuh) that he have done the crime of doing the Marriage with 9 year old Aisha(may peace be upon her).
Brother I told you that He have done the authentic thing that is 'Marriage'.

Can you tell me what is the suitable age of doing marriage?

If you have a little common sense then you will came to know it will depend upon the ability or physics of Individual.
If you say that it will be good to do marriage with 28 years old Girl then I will say that you will not be right in every case
Like
If you want to have sex with a Girl who is of 28 years old and suffering from Cancer and she have even no ability to move from her hospital bed. Even a single pain can take her life.
Then you will be wrong brother because her physics will not allow that.

In the period of Muhammad(pbuh) there was no respect for Women. Women were only the means of sex. Only the Good people give respect to the women, only they do the marriage.
And Muhammad(pbuh) has done the authentic thing that is Marriage.
I know you will not give disrespect because they have did the marriage.
And parents of Aisha(may peace be upon her) has testified that she is ready of marriage according to her physics in the following verse of Hadith in which Aisha(may peace be upon her) has narrated that
"The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"

So there is no confusion at All relating to Quran and Muhammad(pbuh).
If you want to write something then write against the pornography Business, which are making people evil.


And you wrote that on earth where you live have 24 hours day that mean you want to say that we have all the times day only not the night. Where you read such type of science please mention me.

I told you that on earth we have 12 hours day, which means to say that we have 12 hours day + 12 hours night = 24 hours.
And I also said you the Day on Sun is Different it is not 12hours but the day on the Sun will end when the Sun will end.
In every planet timing of days and night is different.
And Allah is the creator of the whole universe.


And you know that nothing is created by its own there is certain reason behind it. That is why I asked you who is the creator of Universe?
And the answer is Allah.
Further you have asked me who is creator of Allah?
And the answer is Allah is not a creation but he is the Almighty creator of whole universe.

Many more illogical things you have quoted without any sense. Brother wake-up don't live like a frog in well. At least try to study some science and please sometime use your common sense also.

Currently I have little time to write against all your illogical things for that please forgive me now, but will try to write for that in the next mail.

And my question is remain the same that why you wrote against the Islam?

If you want to write against the Rape then write against the pornography business in your locality.
As Islam prohibit it.

If you want to write against the terrorism then write the terrorist activity of American Govt. First, and then write about all the terrorist who belongs to any religion including Islam
Because Islam Prohibit terrorism.

If you want to write against the lier then write against all the lier who usually do lies, write against all the corrupted people of any religion.
Because Islam prohibit lies.

If you want to write against the uneducated people then write for all uneducated people.
Because Islam says "Gain Knowledge."

Keep writing the truth, Don't write lies.

And answer me why you are writing against only Islam which is the religion of truth, when you are an atheist (who is against all religion who don't believe that there is a 'God'.)
And please don't confuse the readers otherwise readers will not come here again.
And please give me your personal E-mail Address because I am here writing only for you as you have the confusion but not with All readers.

And please please tell me your name as I can't say you "Silly Allah". Please change your name from " Silly Allah" to something else as It doesn't suit on you and it doesn't suit on any one.


thanking you for reading
Take care brother
With best wishes and Love
Shah

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - do you have any shame? Not only have you lied again, but you called me a liar. Please, please - point out the examples as clearly as I do. This is why I like the public forum - all readers can go back and see how the truth. Thus, I'm not interested in email conversations right now.

Now you say, "There is no contradiction between Al-Awl and Sura Nisa" yet before you said "Quran is the word of Allah which have no mistake and Al-awl was not created by Allah So we can't blame to Allah that Allah did the mistake." - which SHAH is lying and which SHAH is telling the truth? Moreover, an assertion does not make it true - this is a logical fallacy. Nowhere in the Quran does it say to normalize if you give away more inheritance than exists, as Al-Awl does. It never says 1/9 for the wives, it says 1/8 in the Quran. Muhammad didn't know he was making a math error when he did - these fixes came out after his death and after the Quran was supposedly "revealed." It's done. The error is as plain as the nose on your face and unavoidable.

Also, I noticed that you completely ignored my request to show where it is "clearly mentioned" to take remainders. If you believe Al-Awl, which it sounds like you do now, then you can no longer accept the Shia solution of remainders and residues since they contradict each other. Is that the case - are you now Sunni?

I'll ignore the moon god non sequitur for now.

Let's continue - you said, "Quran only says that Allah had created Mountain as standing Firm at the time of earth's creation." That's not true. It's not true that the Quran only says that, and it's also not true that the mountains were firm at the earth's creation. The earth was a hot molten mass for the first 150 million years - no rivers or valleys as Muhammad (and his imaginary friend Allah) believed. Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth Also, let's look at exactly what the Quran says:

Quote:
31:10
Pickthall: He hath created the heavens without supports that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed therein all kinds of beasts. And We send down water from the sky and We cause (plants) of every goodly kind to grow therein.
Yusuf Ali: He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.
Shakir: He created the heavens without pillars as you see them, and put mountains upon the earth lest it might convulse with you, and He spread in it animals of every kind; and We sent down water from the cloud, then caused to grow therein (vegetation) of every noble kind.
Sher Ali: HE has created the heavens without any pillars that you can see, and HE has placed in the earth firm mountains that it may not quake with you, and HE has spread therein all kinds of creatures; and WE have sent down water from the clouds, and have caused to grow therein of every fine species.
Khalifa: He created the heavens without pillars that you can see. He established on earth stabilizers (mountains) lest it tumbles with you, and He spread on it all kinds of creatures. We send down from the sky water to grow all kinds of beautiful plants.
Palmer: He created the heavens without pillars that ye can see, and He threw upon the earth firm mountains lest it should move with you; and He dispersed thereon every sort of beast; and we send down from the heavens water, and we caused to grow therein of every noble kind.
Sale: He hath created the heavens without visible pillars [to sustain them], and hath thrown on the earth [mountains] firmly rooted, lest it should move with you; and he hath replenished the same with all kinds of beasts: And we send down rain from heaven, and cause every kind of noble [vegetable] to spring forth therein.
Rodwell: Without pillars that can be seen hath He created the heavens, and on the earth hath thrown mountains lest it should move with you; and He hath scattered over it animals of every sort: and from the Heaven we send down rain and cause every kind of noble plant to grow up therein.
"Progressive Muslims": He created the heavens without pillars that you can see. And He placed in the earth firm stabilizers so that it would not tumble with you, and He spread on it all kinds of creatures. And We sent down water from the sky, thus We caused to grow all kinds of good plants.
Transliterated Arabic: Khalaqa alssamawati bighayri AAamadin tarawnaha waalqa fee al-ardi rawasiya an tameeda bikum wabaththa feeha min kulli dabbatin waanzalna mina alssama-i maan faanbatna feeha min kulli zawjin kareemin

21:31
Khalifa: : And we placed on earth stabilizers, lest it tumbles with them, and we placed Pickthall: And We have placed in the earth firm hills lest it quake with them, and We have placed therein ravines as roads that haply they may find their way.
Yusuf Ali: And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.
Shakir: And We have made great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them, and We have made in it wide ways that they may follow a right direction.
Sher Ali: And WE have placed in the earth firm mountains lest it should quake with them; and WE have made therein wide pathways, that they may be rightly guided.
Khalifa: And we placed on earth stabilizers, lest it tumbles with them, and we placed straight roads therein, that they may be guided.
Palmer: And we placed on the earth firm mountains lest it should move with them, and He made therein open roads for paths, haply they may be guided!
Sale: And we placed stable [mountains] on the earth, lest it should move with them; and we made broad passages between them for paths, that they might be directed [in their journeys]:
Rodwell: And we set mountains on the earth lest it should move with them, and we made on it broad passages between them as routes for their guidance;
"Progressive Muslims": And We made on the earth stabilizers so that it would not tumble with you, and We made in it wide paths that they may be guided.
Transliterated Arabic: WajaAAalna fee al-ardi rawasiya an tameeda bihim wajaAAalna feeha fijajan subulan laAAallahum yahtadoona

16:15
Pickthall: And He hath cast into the earth firm hills that it quake not with you, and streams and roads that ye may find a way.
Yusuf Ali: And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;
Shakir: And He has cast great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with you, and rivers and roads that you may go aright,
Sher Ali: And HE has placed in the earth firm mountains lest it quake with you and rivers and routes that you may find the way to your destination.
Khalifa: And He placed stabilizers (mountains) on earth, lest it tumbles with you, as well as rivers and roads, that you may be guided.
Palmer: And He has cast firm mountains on the earth lest it move with you; and rivers and roads; haply ye may be guided.
Sale: And he hath thrown upon the earth [mountains] firmly rooted, lest it should move with you, and [also] rivers, and paths, that ye might be directed:
Rodwell: And He hath thrown firm mountains on the earth, least it move with you; and rivers and paths for your guidance,
"Progressive Muslims": And He has cast into the earth stabilizers so that it does not sway with you, and rivers, and paths, perhaps you will be guided.
Transliterated Arabic: Waalqa fee al-ardi rawasiya an tameeda bikum waanharan wasubulan laAAallakum tahtadoona

78:6-7
Pickthall: Have We not made the earth an expanse, And the high hills bulwarks?
Yusuf Ali: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs?
Shakir: Have We not made the earth an even expanse? And the mountains as projections (thereon)?
Sher Ali: Have WE not made the earth as a bed, And the mountains as pegs?
Khalifa: Did we not make the earth habitable? And the mountains stabilizers?
Palmer: Have we not set the earth as a couch, and the mountains as stakes,
Sale: Have we not made the earth for a bed, and the mountains for stakes [to fix the same]?
Rodwell: Have we not made the Earth a couch? And the mountains its tent-stakes?
"Progressive Muslims": Did We not make the earth a resting ground? And the mountains as pegs?
Transliterated Arabic: Alam najAAali al-arda mihadan Waaljibala awtadan

15:19
Pickthall: And the earth have We spread out, and placed therein firm hills, and caused each seemly thing to grow therein.
Yusuf Ali: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance.
Shakir: And the earth -- We have spread it forth and made in it firm mountains and caused to grow in it of every suitable thing.
Sher Ali: And the earth have WE spread out, and set therein firm mountains and cause every thing to grow therein in proper proportion.
Khalifa: As for the earth, we constructed it, and placed on it stabilizers (mountains), and we grew on it a perfect balance of everything.
Palmer: And the earth we have stretched out and have thrown on it firm mountains, and have caused to grow upon it of everything a measured quantity.
Sale: We have also spread forth the earth, and thrown thereon stable [mountains]; and we have caused every kind of [vegetable] to spring forth in the same, according to a determinate weight:
Rodwell: And the Earth have We spread forth, and thrown thereon the mountains, and caused everything to spring forth in it in balanced measure:
"Progressive Muslims": And the land We have stretched, and placed stabilizers in it, and We have planted in it everything in balance.
Transliterated Arabic: Waal-arda madadnaha waalqayna feeha rawasiya waanbatna feeha min kulli shay-in mawzoonin
Detailed translations coming from: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6713:

"The relevant Arabic terms are: awtad for pegs/bulwarks/stabilizers/ projections; rawasiya for mountains, and tameeda for tumble/shake/quake/convulse/sway etc.
Wehr translates this word as unshakable mountains. The Munjid says (al-jibal al-thawabat al-ruwasikh) firmly established, fixed mountains. The word comes from the root (arsa), the same root used for the Arabic word for anchor. To throw out or cast the anchor is (alqa almirsah). So instead of "cast the anchor to keep the ship from moving", we have "cast the mountains to keep the earth from shaking"

Naik translated awtad as stakes or pegs (like those used to anchor a tent)."

You see - Allah did make a mistake or two or three. He thought the mountains were firmly established and fixed, like anchors. He thought rivers were created at the same time. He thought the earth was flat and spread out, with mountains as tent pegs. The mistakes are there unless you close your eyes. Get over it and wake up!

OK, now to Muhammad's sick pedophilia...thank you for posting that Hadith:

"The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"

Now, everybody is clear. Muhammad married a 6 year old (when he was 51) and had sex with her when she was 9 years old (and he was 54!). You claim it was out of her "physics" because she was ill. Yet, very clearly in this Hadith it says, "Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again)." So she was better when he had sex with her, it had nothing to do with cancer or "physics." Let's continue and see what she was doing: " playing in a swing with some of my girl friends." Let's all understand that we're talking about a 9 year old her. She was playing on the swings. In another Hadith, she's playing with dolls, something a translator said only pre-pubescent girls could do. Regardless of her early physical development, she wasn't emotionally mature enough to be sexually taken by a 54 year old. It's all just wrong, and he's your prophet. The non-Muslim readers are disgusted so you can't really justify it. It's a personal issue your going to have to deal with as you deal with your faith in silly Allah.

On to Allah's silly astronomy...

I see you've hidden in your hole about the sky as a roof, the earth's age being incorrect for the Big Bang, the invisible pillars holding up the sky, the silly Jinns living in piss holes and getting hit by stars (lamps) in the "lower heaven," the seven heavens, etc. etc. I really do have to make a whole blog post on Allah's silly astronomy. I think it may end up being a number of posts because of so many mistakes.

I do apologize for making fun out of the 12 hour day comment. I see that you honestly meant day as the Quran meant it (just the hours with sunlight). I guess this brings up an interesting point - did Muhammad know that it was day in Arabia when it was night somewhere else? I don't think so since he thought the sun went under a "throne" and waited until the next day before showing up. Actually, he didn't know about the earth's tilt or else how do you fast during Ramadan at the North or South poles when it can be a 24 hour day or a 24 hour night? I guess you shouldn't be a Muslim scientist in either of those locations, right?

Moving on...

You asked questions about the earth's orbit, which I answered. Did you think that it was Allah's miracle that the earth doesn't crash into the sun? If not, why did you ask such a silly question?

Then you said, "Further you have asked me who is creator of Allah? And the answer is Allah is not a creation but he is the Almighty creator of whole universe."

Don't you see the logical fallacy of circular reasoning at play? Here, let me show you:

1. Allah is the Creator of the universe
2. No one can create the Creator
3. No one created Allah

It's just plain silly! Did you read up on the Big Bang, Cosmic Inflation or Stephen Hawking's instanton solution? Hawking writes books for the layman if you have trouble with advanced science or math. Please, please read up on some real science.

Now, you keep asking me about my blog and I've answered - so let me ask you something. Why have you never, not once during our discussions, thought objectively about Islam? Why have you always started from the assumption that it's true? Most logical fallacies start with bad assumptions. Just consider that you might be wrong - don't even assume it, just consider it. Consider what it says for a religion when you have to be dishonest in your defense and when you have to close your eyes to obvious mathematical, geological, astronomical, cosmological and biological mistakes in the Quran. Consider that Muhammad was a pedophile, a murderer, and a preacher of hate. Here's the best part about my questions - you don't have to answer them, not to me or in a comment. You just have to ask yourself and be honest with yourself. These people did:

http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.secularislam.org/

http://www.middleastwomen.org/

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

http://kafirgirl.wordpress.com

http://www.noniedarwish.com/

http://www.mukto-mona.com/

http://www.homa.org/

http://taslimanasrin.com/

http://www.muslimsandislamic2.faithweb.com/

http://exmuslim.com/

http://www.shoebat.com/

http://www.webspawner.com/users/hfali1/

http://www.geocities.com/ibn_rushd2


And I have more apostate websites if you're interested.

SHAH said...

Many many thanks for writing me.

Brother I don't know why you are saying that there is a contradiction between Al-Awl and Quran. What you want to prove that Quran is incorrect or the Al-Awl is incorrect?

Where I have given you complete explanation that neither the Quran is Incorrect nor Al-Awl is incorrect.
It is correct that in Quran share of wives specified by Allah is 1/8 of Inheritance(after payment of debt and will) but Ali (may peace be upon him) had given only 1/9 share of Inheritance.
But this doesn't prove that Quran is Incorrect or Ali(may peace be upon him) commited a Mistake.
Ali(may peace be upon him) has done the distribution of inheritance according to situation.
Let me give you an example
Mr A, who have only three sons,(no wives, no parents)when he was alive. And Mr A has made the will when he was alive that at the time of his death his inheritance would be distributed between all his sons equally.
And if suppose you have been appointed as liquidator of Mr A after his death, but one of the son who love his other brothers ready to relinquish his money as he have lots of money.
So then you have distributed the whole inheritance money between two son only.
Now the question arises are you wrong?
The answer is No.
As you have done the act according to the situation though you have not given 1/3 share to the sons and you have given 1/2 share to the son you are still right.

In the same manner there is no contradiction between Quran and Al-Awl and both are correct.

Now see what you have said
" The earth was a hot molten mass for the first 150 million years - no rivers or valleys as Muhammad (and his imaginary friend Allah) believed.

Brother do you mean to say that the above mention line is not in the Quran and that is why you are saying that Quran is incorrect.
Brother then you can also say that All the books of science are incorrect because when you read book of mathematic you don't find the information relating to physics and when you read book relating to physics you don't find Aeroplane technology in that book and in short you mean to say that "No book of science can contain all information of science that is why all are incorrect."
If you can't find the information in a book, how can a book be Incorrect.

Further I would like to remind you that Quran is not the book of science, it is the book of S-I-G-N .
And I told you in previous mails about the concept of Day and night that on earth we have 12 hours day + 12 hours Night= 24 Hours
But this system is different in different planet.
The day specified in Quran may be of 12 hour or may be of very long period like billions of hours.

Now you said Earth was hot molten mass it is absolutely true as per Science and I have no objection on it. But you can't prove through this that Quran is Incorrect.
As you know that many more activities were happened at the time of Earth's creation. So you can't say Quran is Incorrect.


Brother you have quoted in previous mail that
Q. 72: 8
“And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
9.
And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him;"

Q. 37: 6/10
”We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,
(For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,
(So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,
Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.

Q. 67: 5
“And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.”

So you tell me what it says, LOL! While we're at it, do you believe in Jinns as the prophet did? Do you piss in holes? I hope not because Jinn hang out there:

Hadith - Ahmad, an-Nasa'i, Dawud, al-Hakim and al-Baihaqi
Qatadah related from 'Abdullah ibn Sarjas who said, "The Messenger of Allah forbade urination into a hole." Said Qatadah, "What is disliked about urinating into a hole?" Said he, "It is the residence of the jinn." [Ibn Khuzaimah and Ibn as-Sakin classified it as sahih]

Relatedly, do you believe that Satan pisses in your ear when you sleep late?

Bukhari Volume 2, Book 21, Number 245:
Narrated 'Abdullah :
A person was mentioned before the Prophet (p.b.u.h) and he was told that he had kept on sleeping till morning and had not got up for the prayer. The Prophet said, "Satan urinated in is ears."

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 492:

Narrated 'Abdullah:
It was mentioned before the Prophet that there was a man who slept the night till morning (after sunrise). The Prophet said, "He is a man in whose ears (or ear) Satan had urinated."

Sorry, I couldn't stop laughing, but I got ahead of myself. So, going back to Jinn - why don't you tell us what it says. Be careful, I will check the scholars ;)


After reading your mail I was just laughing on you, but don't take it ill please.

When in the period Orville and Wilbur Wright(who had invented the first Aeroplane) was thinking to make a Aeroplane people use to laugh because they believe that how can a Man fly in the sky like a bird but when in December 17, 1903, they invented the First Aeroplane all laughs get vanished and now we treat them that they were laughing like a Fool.
In the same manner you are laughing now it is not your fault but it is your misconception and mis-faith that is why you are laughing.

Now Allah had created millions of species, even the scientist don't know about all. Scientist is still searching the knowledge of All.
As you know that scientist is only a common man like you and me, he or she is not a God.

When Allah can create certain species
(a)which can live in Normal water like Fish etc.
(b)Which can live on land like camel, lion, etc.
(c)Which can fly in air like birds
(d)Which can also live in Boiling water like Pompeii worm
http://www.mwt.net/~bionorse/worm%20pompeii.htm

So why can't he create the species from Fire like Jinn. If scientist didn't find the evidence of this it doesn't prove that Quran is Incorrect.

Let me explain you in a different way
If you suppose that man Can't be Invisible and start laughing on the scientist who say that man can be invisible and they are doing the research over it. Few have got partial success on it also.
And if again you laugh on them you will be called as Silly like your name.

When man can make man invisible then why can't Allah can create Invisible species like Satan and Jinn.
Whatever the Sign of Science given in Quran 1400 years ago, Scientist came to know that now like
(a)Earth Rotates
(b)Sun rotates
(c) Big Bang theory
(d)Day and night which is due to reflection of sunlight.
(e)Whatever is on it. (the earth) will perish.,etc.

Muhammad(pbuh) is taking care of Jinn also as he said about the particular hole that "It is the residence of the jinn." And he stop his follower to urinate there.
And Muhammad(pbuh) mentioning about only a particular hole not all whole so don't worry.
What is wrong here?

Now you have Quoted
"Satan urinated in is ears."

Brother there are millions of species whom you can't see by your open eyes. To see few of them you need microscope.
And millions of species goes inside your body who do Shit and urine also and it is only mention about one Satan.
So what you are going to do so that non of species can urinate on your tongue when you open your mouth.


Currently I have little time to write for you so I will try to write in further mail for you.

And remember there is No error in Quran. It is uneasy to face the truth but can face it if you start believing in It.

Thanking you

Silly Allah said...

SHAH - Your delusion runs strong.

OK, you ask me why I keep bringing up the contradiction in Al-Awl. There are a number of reasons.

1. For starters, you said that Al-Awl has a mistake. So according to you, either the Quran is incorrect or there's a contradiction between Al-Awl and the Quran. To remind you, you said, ""Quran is the word of Allah which have no mistake and Al-awl was not created by Allah So we can't blame to Allah that Allah did the mistake." You may have forgotten because at that point in the discussion, you didn't even know that Al-Awl is the Sunni fix and you're residues/remainders fix is the Shia solution. This brings me to my next point...

2. Al-Awl and the Residues/remainders fix contradict each other - this is a fact. You first posted that the correct fix was the BODMAS junk, which is the residues/remainders fix. That fix gives 13/36 to the 3 daughters, while Al-Awl gives 16/27 to the 3 daughters. Since the numbers don't match, it's a contradiction. So, which SHAH is speaking? The one that was pushing the BODMAS stuff or the one who know prefers Al-Awl. If a person died in this situation, what would you give out? 13/36 or 16/27?

3. Al-Awl contradicts the Quran. The Quran says to give 2/3 to the 3 daughters. Al-Awl gives 16/27 to the three daughters. 2/3 does not equal 16/27. Thus, there's a contradiction. Unless, of course, you can show all the readers where Allah says to give 16/27 to the 3 daughters. Can you?

Allah failed math. Period.
----
"Now see what you have said
" The earth was a hot molten mass for the first 150 million years - no rivers or valleys as Muhammad (and his imaginary friend Allah) believed.
Brother do you mean to say that the above mention line is not in the Quran and that is why you are saying that Quran is incorrect."

No, I said that because you claimed the Quran was talking about "the time of earth's creation" when it mistakenly claimed to have created "firm hills." The Quran also claimed to have made rivers and valleys at creation. In fact, there were no rivers or valleys at the earth's creation. Moreover, as I pointed out many times, the "hills" are not "firm." The earth is constantly changing and the Quran is wrong again. I never claimed the Quran is a book of science, believe me. However, the Quran makes claims that are simply wrong. BTW, non-Muslims do find it amusing when Muslims go from claiming miracles to claiming "I would like to remind you that Quran is not the book of science." Hilarious.

Oh, and btw, the universe was not created in 6 days (or is it 8 days in one more Quran contradiction? or 7 days as the Hadith state?). And, yes, yaum = day. And the stars are not in the "lowest" heaven as "lamps" and they don't chase Jinn around...And there are no "invisible pillars" holding up the heavens. And the sky doesn't fall. Need I go on?
---
OK, then you just said some stuff that I'm surprised you're not embarrassed by. First, though, let me point out a logical fallacy (of many) you used. You said, "If scientist didn't find the evidence of this it doesn't prove that Quran is Incorrect." Uh, no, you are trying to make the unbeliever prove a negative. You can't prove a negative. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - the burden of proof is on you. Now, let's go ahead and see these extraordinary claims:
1. "So why can't he create the species from Fire like Jinn." So you believe in Jinn. This is funny. Have you seen any? How do you know I'm not a Jinn? Maybe Barak Obama and George Bush are Jinn? Do you really mean they are created from fire? Fire is just a chemical reaction involving oxygen combining with other atoms - can you explain more? I'm sure it will be entertaining for us. Oh, and you can cut out your fallacy by false analogy. It's a waste of time.
2. Jinn live in piss holes? Really? Oh, and your first attempt at explaining this away didn't work. The Hadith did not refer to a particular hole. So you really believe that Jinn live in piss holes? (even one piss hole?)
3. Do you really believe that stars chase away the Jinn? Can you explain how?
4. That Satan pisses in your ear if you sleep after sunrise. Where is the evidence? Actually, never mind the evidence, this one is so funny I just want to hear you explain it! Your first explanation was weak - you can do better than that! We're not talking about any species. We're talking about an intelligent, evil being with supernatural powers...can you tell us more about this invisible being which pisses in ears if you oversleep? Why does he piss in ears only if you oversleep? Please, please explain this one. It's really funny so if you only have time to explain one thing, this is the one for which I'd prefer the longest explanation.

----
OK, next you said:
"Whatever the Sign of Science given in Quran 1400 years ago, Scientist came to know that now like
(a)Earth Rotates
(b)Sun rotates
(c) Big Bang theory
(d)Day and night which is due to reflection of sunlight.
(e)Whatever is on it. (the earth) will perish.,etc."

Great, let's go through it:
a) By your own admission, the Quran did not state that the earth rotates. Allah did not know.
b) The Quran never states this either. The Quran and Hadith only talk about the sun orbiting the earth, going to a throne, waiting until the next (earth) day, then rising again. All of which is wrong
c) Even in this stretched interpretation, the Quran would have to claim that the universe was created when the earth and heavens were combined, yet the earth was actually created over 9 billion years AFTER the universe was started. So this makes no sense. In fact, if you follow verses 2:29, 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59, you'll see that Allah supposedly created the earth BEFORE the heavens. What? Can't Allah get anything right?
d) The Quran talks about the sun and moon circling the earth. The sun does not orbit the earth. So Allah is wrong again. Also, the Quran did not know that the moon showed reflected light. It said that Allah "made the moon a light." Wrong again. This one is pretty bad because Aristotle new the moon showed reflected light many years before Muhammad.
e) Not sure what your claim is here.

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Oh, and I see you gave up on defending Muhammad's pedophilia. BTW, I have other blog posts (4 of them) on that topic so you might want to go there and learn more.