Friday, October 5, 2007

Dishonesty

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."


For some reason, Muslims have less of a problem with dishonesty than others I've debated. Sometimes, they outright lie. When called on it, they don't even react offended and just try again!

A common lie is just to ignore what you said in the previous message, or, better yet, what they may have said themselves. It's as if they don't think you'll save every message through your inbox. I've spent a lot of time cutting and pasting old messages just to remind Muslims of things I said or they've said. So - remember - save every message!

Always call Muslims out on the lying or use of fallacies as a defense. Never let them get away with it. Remind them that the worst form of lying is lying to oneself. This gets to the heart of the matter. If Muslims have to resort to lying to make their point - what does that say about Islam? If Islam is the "one, true religion," shouldn't defending it be easy?

It's hard to show you examples of lying from my messages with Muslims because you would have to see long message histories. However, there are some great examples from the public:

1. Denmark's most famous Imam, Ahmed Abdel Rahman Abu Laban, forged cartoons to push a political agenda. Sadly, this disclosure had no affect on the rampaging Muslim world as we all know. This was a religious leader lying. Read here, here, and here. One more.

2. Watch a short documentary here about Pallywood - just scroll to the bottom for the link. Pallywood is a phrase used to refer to stage news events by Palestinian and other cameramen to portray Israel in an unfavorable light.

3. An long list of Fauxtography links. Fauxtography is a key Muslim method of news reporting where real photos are purposefully mislabeled and/or photoshop is applied to falsely create intended drama around a fabricated story. One of my favorites is the one where an old, unused ambulance is falsely portrayed as the victim of an Israeli attack.

Why?

Why Muslims lie is an interesting question. I admit to knowing enough on the subject to explain the causes, but not enough to have a complete understanding. I may update this page as I learn more.

Let's start with lies that are sanctified in the Hadith:
Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them). (Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05; see also Sahih al-Bukhari 3.857)

So this Hadith is saying that you can lie to
1. achieve success in war
2. to bring about peace
3. to help a husband and wife reconcile.
You can also 4. lie to save one's life:
"The idolators seized Ammar, and they let him not go until he had abused Mahomet and spoken well of their gods. He then repaired to the Prophet, who asked of him what had happened." - "Evil, oh Prophet of the Lord! I was not let go until I had abused thee, and spoken well of their gods." - "But how," replied Mahomet, "dost thou find thine own heart?" - "Secure and steadfast in the faith." - "Then," said Mahomet, "if they repeat the same, do thou too repeat the same." Ibid. Mahomet also said that Ammar's lie was better than Abu Jahl's truth.

What else?

Taqqiyah is one reason (or the key reason) lying goes further. Dr. Walid writes, " Al-Taqiyah. Al-Taqiyah, from the verb Ittaqu, means linguistically dodge the threat. Politically it means simulate whatever status you need in order to win the war against the enemy ..." This is from a Muslim site:

"Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings,
opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or
later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury."

One more definition:

"A one-word translation would be”Dissimulation.” In Arabic the translation would be “hypocrisy in the pursuit of a greater purpose. And ……… "

I think you get the picture.

The definition of Taqqiyah gives liars enough leeway to take it as far as they want (how do you define fear of mental injury or pursuit of a greater purpose?). Moreover, it leads to a cultural mindset about lying and dishonesty.

There is a particularly Shia doctrine of Kithman, which is related to Taqqiya...here is a cut and paste:

Kithman is a command to deliberately conceal one’s beliefs. It is a particular form of lying primarily practiced by the minority Shia’ Muslims. This doctrine is articulated by Imam Jafar Sadiq, the sixth Imam of Shia’ Islam:

One, who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us.

You belong to a religion that whosoever conceals it, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him.


Mohamed (Mohammad) helped the dishonesty culture by setting an example. I gave an example above where he approved of lying about faith. Here's another from the Hadith:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." ... (Sahih al-Bukhari 5.369, cf. the article on Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf for further details)

Here's another story that shows lying for financial benefit:

After the conquest of the city of Khaybar by the Muslims, the Prophet was approached by Hajaj Ibn `Aalat and told: "O Prophet of Allah: I have in Mecca some excess wealth and some relatives, and I would like to have them back; am I excused if I bad-mouth you to escape persecution?" The Prophet excused him and said: "Say whatever you have to say."

This comment by Al-Ghazali is a great summary:
Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

Note that Al-Ghazali is one of the most famous and respected Muslim theologians of all time.

Now my 4 word summary: means to an end.

The culture of dishonesty and lying is so ingrained that Muslims lie to themselves without even thinking twice. The obvious question for a believer would be "if I'm lying in order to defend Islam logically, does that mean that Islam is illogical on its own?"

Here are some great sources that go through this issue in better detail (although there is the unfortunate Christian counterpoint as well).

http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/L/lying.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch16_understanding_dishonesty.htm
http://www.investigateislam.com/lying_in_islam.htm

Next...read the Koran

UPDATE

Here's a nice quote from Muhammad:

If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better."
Sahih Bukhari 9:89:26

9 comments:

QuddusMow said...

Bismillaah.

1)
"A Muslim cannot be a liar".
-MuHammad Ar Rasuulullaah Sal Allaahu 'Alaihi Was Sallam.

2)
Shiites are not Muslims.
They believe some things that exclude them from the Religion such as the Ahlul Bayt judging them on Al Yawmid Deen.

3)
No matter how much anyone studies, they cannot find an atom of true fault in Ad Deen Al Islaam.

You should give this up.

Silly Allah said...

"1)A Muslim cannot be a liar".
You're kidding, right? I see, so if I find a Muslim who lies(such as yourself on this page: violent sexism in Islam), then that person is not a Muslim? This is the circular reasoning fallacy.

"2)Shiites are not Muslims."
And they say the same about the Sunnis.

I take it that since they lie, you want to exclude them (referring to your rule 1 fallacy). Unfortunately, all aspects of the Islamic culture of dishonesty are not restricted to Shiites.

"3)No matter how much anyone studies, they cannot find an atom of true fault in Ad Deen Al Islaam."

You know this is false because you have not been able to prove the facts and logic on this site wrong. Instead, you've resorted to fallacies, threats, and lies. If you were a critical thinker with an open mind, you might realize that there are faults and that your Allah friend is imaginary.

"You should give this up."
You're comments only encourage me to keep going. With every post, you prove my points to the readers.

John Sobieski said...

You can see the result of the ingrained approval of lieing in Islam. Muslims lie so much to themselves, to other Muslims and, of course. to the infidels,that themselves cannot distinguish between truth and lies. I.E., they come to believe their own eyes. That is why Islam is the perfect cult. That and the rules to never question and kill those who question Islam. It's the perfect trap to enslave the human mind and makes it followers zombies.

Iyerman sayeth said...

I think muslims are liars and their religion of hate and pedophelia needs to be exposed

gmtsource said...

Its a common encounter with the Muslims that they will never accept that Mohammad was a pedophile and Islam is not a religion of lies, whereas I have a several encounters Muslims taking the path of lies for their personal benefits and the benefits for Islam.

Your endeavor in bringing truth to the Muslims are appreciated.

May The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob bless you abundantly, with Jesus Christ our Saviour in the unity of Holy Spirit One God for ever and ever ....Amen

Shelley Keith Benjamin
E-mail:gmtsource@hotmail.com

Muhammad said...

Just to share my thoughts.

(1) Agreed, as stated, there are 3 (+ 1 for Taqiyah) reasons where Islam permits lying as stated in the article.

(2) Islam does not advocate lying. However, if Muslims do lie for their own benefit, then it is no fault of the religion, but of the person themselves showing lack of understanding of Islam, its teachings and lack of fear of Allah (SWT)

Silly Allah said...

And there is a fine line between broad conditions for permission and advocacy, especially when you look at the examples and comments from Muhammad himself. Sorry, my experience in discussion (as evidenced by the comments by Muslims on this very blog) does not corroborate your comment.

Jedi master said...

This is honestly the best website I have ever been to. It's helping me not only improve my logical reasoning skills but also exposing a cult of hostility.

Thank you for the work! I hope you keep going!

TheStudent54 said...

"So this Hadith is saying that you can lie to
1. achieve success in war
2. to bring about peace
3. to help a husband and wife reconcile.
You can also 4. lie to save one's life:"
These reasons for lying are perfectly acceptable. For example the first one is that you can lie to achieve success. If you are fighting in a war and you will die but only if you lie and bluff to other army that you have more troops you can save your life or you will die. Would you rather lie or die.
The second one was to bring peace. If I want to bring world peace and all I say for example that we love each other (that's not true) I can make world peace. If I can achieve peace through a lie and make everyone life secure why wouldn't I.
The third one was to help a husband and wife reconcile, if only one lie will unite then again, then why wouldn't you lie for them.
4. The last one was to lie to save one's life, why would you lie. For example your close friend is about to get killed because he has lots of money but if you lie and say he doesn't have any money then the robber wont waste his time killing him.