Wednesday, December 19, 2007

The inheritance mistake in detail - Part 3

The next mistake and more

Second math mistake

How would you split the inheritance if a woman dies, leaving behind a husband and a brother but no children or parents?
Husband: x%
Brother: y%

Let's go to the verses for an answer:
4:12 "
In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child"
Husband: 1/2

4:12 "
If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; "
Brother: 1/6

4:176 "Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance"
Brother: 1/1 (100%)

So the final numbers are:
Husband: 1/2 or 50%
Brother: 7/6 or 117%, already over 100 because 176 and 12 contradict each other

One silly discussion I had with a Muslim ended up with him asserting that a wife was different than a woman. So his excuse for the Quran was that verse 12 refers to a wife and verse 176 refers to a woman. Hmmm, so a wife is not a woman in Islam? Seriously, if this were true, then why would it say "
If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child"? There should be no reason to say "who left no child."

And there's more issue with these set of verses. Verse 176 directly contradicts 12 in that it provides a different inheritance for the brother when the woman has no parents or one case it's 1/6 and in the other it's 6/6 or 100%. This second issue has been formally recognized by Muslims, and has been a source of significant debate(
Commentators are of opinion that by a brother or a sister here is meant a brother or a sister on the mother’s side and that the case of real brothers and sisters, or brothers and sisters on the father’s side, is dealt with in v. 176 of this chapter. The reason for this is that here as well as in v. 176, the property to be inherited is that of a kalalah, and it is generally supposed that a kalalah is one who has neither parents nor children. But as a matter of fact kalalah bears two meanings. It means the person who has no children whether he has parents or not, and it also means the person who has neither children nor parents. It is derived from kalla which means he became tired or f a t i g u e d, and therefore its primary significance would be the person who has no c h i l d r e n. I‘Ab is reported to have explained this word as meaning one who does not leave offspring whether he leaves parents or not. ‘Umar also is reported to have said that kalalah is one who has no children, that is all; see Ghara’ib al-Qur’an. Hence it is more reasonable to take the kalalah spoken of here as being different from the kalalah spoken of in v. 176. The kalalahin the present case is one who has no children but has parents, and therefore the brothers and sisters are not the only heirs and their share is only one-sixth, while the kalalahspoken of in v. 176 is one who leaves neither children norparents, and therefore the brothers and the sisters take the whole of the inheritance.
Now if you had the patience to follow the apologetics, you will see that this author has decided that the same word, kalalah, has two different meanings for 12 and for 176. In 12, he decides (against all three translations that USC uses) that the prescriptions are for one that has parents and 176 refers only to one that has parents and children. While this has no basis in the translations, it still does not solve the problem that started this blog post.

You may have also noticed another solution proposed in that long bit of apologetics: "
Commentators are of opinion that by a brother or a sister here is meant a brother or a sister on the mother’s side and that the case of real brothers and sisters, or brothers and sisters on the father’s side, is dealt with in v. 176 of this chapter. "

However, this solution still does not solve the problem starting the post, and actually causes more problems. Without going through the math, imagine dividing the inheritance among a many sisters from the mother's side and many "real" sisters from the father's side plus spouse and/or parent. You're over 100% pretty quickly.

All of this is quite funny when considering that 176 also states "Allah makes clear to you." Apparently silly Allah has quite a sense of humor.

More debunking of Muslim apologetics on the inheritance mistakes to come in the next post
because I ran out of time and space here.

Sunday, November 18, 2007

The inheritance mistake in detail - Part 2

Two historical attempts at the mistake

Now, what happened when Muslims discovered the inheritance math mistake in the Quran? They needed to follow Sharia law in order to divide the inheritance, yet they took the Quran as divine with no mistakes. There could only have been two results: mass deconversion from Islam or "fixes" that allowed for peaceful division of the inherited property.

Al-Awl (or Aul)

Well, it turns out, I wasn't the first to discover this mistake. In fact, the 4th Caliph, Ali, saw it in 7th century A.D. His attempted fix, known as Al-Awl (or Aul), is basically a normalization. So, let's look at this example from the last post: A man dies and leaves behind 3 daughters, 2 parents and 2 wives. Let's see how Ali would change things ( under section 4:11):

"The ‘aul was first legalized by ‘Ali, the fourth Caliph, who, being questioned about the share of a wife, the other heirs being the two parents and two daughters, gave the answer “without premeditation” that the wife’s one-eighth had become one-ninth, for the two parents should take one-third, the two daughters two-thirds, and the wife one-eighth, which make up nine-eighths, and hence ‘Ali decided that each of the heirs should take less than was due,
so that the proportion might remain the same "

Now, keeping in mind that nowhere in the Quran does it say to normalize, let's look at the resultant math:

Quran's literal words give a total of 9/8:

3 daughters: 2/3
2 parents: 1/3
2 wives: 1/8

Using Al-Awl rules to normalize, you get:

3 daughters: 16/27
2 parents: 8/27
2 wives: 1/9

The first set of numbers were multiplied by 8/9 so that the total could equal 100%. That's it folks. A quick fix with no basis in the Quran.

Residues and Remainders

Another idea was to take remainders after each calculation. Let me be more clear by quoting from the same Muslim website above:

"In this case the parents first take their respective shares,
and the residue goes to the children, if there are any, failing which, the share of the
parents is increased. "

So, instead of following the Quran literally, that "Allah makes clear to you," Muslims invented words that didn't exist in the 4:11, 4:12 and 4:176 of the Quran...specifically, "first take" and "residue." There is no mention of order in the Quran's inheritance calculation, nor is there a mention of residue. Just for fun, let's go through the calculation:

2 parents first: 1/3, then daughters? No, actually, those who follow this fix actually calculate the 2 wives first at 1/8 total. Yes, I know that the wives are mentioned in a whole other (later) verse, so it's even sillier for them to get their share first but so be it. OK, so now, we've given away 1/3 + 1/8 = 11/24, leaving a balance of 13/24. Now, the daughters get their 2/3 of 13/24 = 13/36. In summary:

3 daughters: 13/36
2 parents: 1/3
2 wives: 1/8

Now, 13/36 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 59/72 <1 style="font-style: italic;" size="2">"The balance (i.e., 1-59/72 = 13/72) shall be given to the person bequeathed by the deceased; in the absence of such a person, it shall be given to the closest male relative of the deceased; in the absence of such a relative, the balance shall be distributed as per the regulations of the state of residence of the deceased."
I interpret this to mean "we don't know because we just made up the fix anyway." LOL Seriously, there is still a math problem, and, I imagine, some very angry relatives.

Let's revisit this fix. An order was added to the calculation whereby shares were taken of residues rather than the whole. However, this solution also has no basis in the Quran. Nowhere does it say to follow a particular order, especially in reverse of how shares are presented in the Quran (children first, then parents, then wives as opposed to parents and wives then children in the fix).

Islamic Math Mistakes With Fixes

Now, even if we were to accept the fixes, and even if we believed that the justification (of which there is none within the "perfect" Quran). Are we still left with a contradiction? Yes. Simply put, the followers of said fixes are not following the perfect Quran. Muslims who you debate actually know this, and will therefore refuse to give you the final percentages in a debate. If they do, go through this:

"4:11 says "if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance," does it not?"

The answer: yes

"OK, well you're giving those 3 daughters in this example 16/27 or 13/26 (depending on which fix they're using). Doesn't that violate the Quran?"

The answer: have to calculate shares after normalizing (or based on residues).

"OK, but the Quran never says to calculate shares after normalizing (or based on residues). In fact, there isn't even a word that is close to normalizing (or residues, nor any mention of order in the calculation). Let's return to 4:11..."

And so the debate will go on ad infinitum. The point stays though - silly Allah can't do math.

In the next post, I will go through some of the other rebuttals and lead into more inheritance mistakes.

Saturday, November 17, 2007

The inheritance mistake in detail - Part 1

The verses

There are a number of verses that tell Muslims how to manage inheritance: 2:180, 2:233, 2:240, 4:12, 4:13, 4:176 and 5:106. However, the verses that go through the detailed mathematics are 4:12, 4:13, and 4:176:

YUSUFALI: Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.
PICKTHAL: Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

YUSUFALI: In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.
PICKTHAL: And unto you belongeth a half of that which your wives leave, if they have no child; but if they have a child then unto you the fourth of that which they leave, after any legacy they may have bequeathed, or debt (they may have contracted, hath been paid). And unto them belongeth the fourth of that which ye leave if ye have no child, but if ye have a child then the eighth of that which ye leave, after any legacy ye may have bequeathed, or debt (ye may have contracted, hath been paid). And if a man or a woman have a distant heir (having left neither parent nor child), and he (or she) have a brother or a sister (only on the mother's side) then to each of them twain (the brother and the sister) the sixth, and if they be more than two, then they shall be sharers in the third, after any legacy that may have been bequeathed or debt (contracted) not injuring (the heirs by willing away more than a third of the heritage) hath been paid. A commandment from Allah. Allah is Knower, Indulgent.
SHAKIR: And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

YUSUFALI: They ask thee for a legal decision. Say: Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance: If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them): if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.
PICKTHAL: They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. Allah expoundeth unto you, so that ye err not. Allah is Knower of all things.
SHAKIR: They ask you for a decision of the law. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring; if a man dies (and) he has no son and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no son; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brethren, men and women, then the male shall have the like of the portion of two females; Allah makes clear to you, lest you err; and Allah knows all things.

Here, I have included all the translations so that there is no discrepancy in understanding. While we're on this point, please note the last line of the last verse:
"Allah makes clear to you, lest you err; and Allah knows all things."
OK, so let's all remember that Allah makes it all clear to you because he knows all things. So, if we notice that three Muslims give three different answers (and they will), then there must be another contradiction...simply that Allah is not clear after all.

The Math and the mistake

So let's go back to the original question:

Now, calculate how to split the inheritance for a man how dies and leaves behind: 3 daughters, 2 parents and two wives.

3 daughters: x%
2 parents: y%
2 wives: z%

Here's the answer with the supporting quotes.

3 daughters: 2/3
4:11 : "if only daughters, 2 or more, their share is 2/3 of the inheritance"

2 parents: 1/6+1/6=1/3
4:11 : "For parents, a 1/6 share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children"

2 wives: 1/8
4:12 : "in what ye leave, their share is 1/4, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an 1/8"

Now, let's add up the inheritance divisions up:
2/3+1/3+1/8 = 9/8 >1

Mistake! Allah can't do math. How can you possibly give away more inheritance than you have? Now, I pointed out just one math mistake, but there are many. In the next set of posts I will go through the typical, albeit false, objections to Islamic mathematics.

Thursday, November 15, 2007

The mathematical, scientific and historical errors

There are almost too many errors and contradictions in the Quran from which non-Muslims must choose. Here is my favorite opening salvo when messaging a Muslim:

"1. Let's start with a mathematical mistake. This one is best to do on your own so that you can see the problems yourself. Go to the inheritance verses (4:11, 4:12 and 4:176), read them here:

Now, calculate how to split the inheritance for a man how dies and leaves behind: 3 daughters, 2 parents and two wives. It should take about 15 minutes.

3 daughters: x%
2 parents: y%
2 wives: z%


2. Historical mistake. The Quran plagiarizes much of the Bible. In the process of copying, sometimes Mohammad and his buddies got creative. In the following example, their creativity caused them to leave behind an obvious historical error. From the story of Joseph...

Here's the Bible:

40:18 Then Joseph answered and said, "This is its interpretation: the three baskets are three days;

40:19 within three more days Pharaoh will lift up your head from you and will hang you on a tree, and the birds will eat your flesh off you."

Now, here's the Quran (different translations listed below to make it easy):
YUSUFALI: "O my two companions of the prison! As to one of you, he will pour out the wine for his lord to drink: as for the other, he will hang from the cross, and the birds will eat from off his head. (so) hath been decreed that matter whereof ye twain do enquire"...
PICKTHAL: O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire.
SHAKIR: O my two mates of the prison! as for one of you, he shall give his lord to drink wine; and as for the other, he shall be crucified, so that the birds shall eat from his head, the matter is decreed concerning which you inquired.

Did you see the difference? The Bible talked about decapitation followed by hanging. The Quran talked about crucifixion. That's where the error occurs. You see, archaeologists point out 6th century BC Persia as the earliest occurrence of crucifixion, yet the story of Joseph was over 10 centuries before that. The ancient Egyptians did not do crucifixion before the Roman's brought the practice over. Mohammad should be more careful when he plagiarizes.


3. How about another obvious one. You see Mohammad knew that the Christians believed in a son of god, so he assumed the Jews did too:

YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Mistake! Find me a Jew that talks about Ezra. You can't. Especially one that talks about Ezra being the son of god. You see, the Jews find the whole son of god thing to be blasphemous. They would not say it. Another Quran mistake."

There is enough here to start a conversation. In the next set of posts, I will go through the common counterarguments from Muslims and show you why they are false. First the Quran inheritance mistakes.

Sunday, November 11, 2007

Violent sexism and wife beating in Islam - Part 2

Mohammad found wife beating quite alright, almost a fan you might say. Let's go to the Hadith: (read it carefully, a wife is bruised so green that she matches her clothing, but it is ok...Mohammad actually criticizes the woman in the end!). A thank you to for finding it.

"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by the beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.""

Notice that the believing women suffer more than the rest. They get green bruises, but the prophet is ok with it.

Saturday, November 10, 2007

Violent sexism and wife beating in Islam

Battered Saudi TV Host, Ranya Al-Baz and Abusive Husband

Posted Nov 14, 2005

A glimpse into women's rights in Saudi Arabia.

As I said in an earlier post, a great way to get a Muslim woman thinking is by starting with Mohammad's pedophilia or Islam's violent sexism. Muslim's will generally deny the first (in the face of all evidence), but eventually succumb to the existence of sexism although twisting and turning with respect to the violent aspect.

General sexism

The sexism is obvious, as can be found in the Skeptics Annotated Quran's section on Women. It's quite a long list, here is a subset of really loony verses:
  • A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282 ; and males are to inherit twice that of females. 4:11
  • Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15 ; but the wives of Mohammad will be punished double for lewdness! 33:30
  • You can't have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like). 4:24
  • Don't pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched a woman lately. 4:43
  • A husband can accuse his wife of adultery with only one witness. 24:6
  • The wives of Mohammad are not like other women. They must not leave their houses. 33:32-33 [a little controlling, aren't we Mohammad?] ; oh, and Allah says it is lawful for Muhammad to marry any women he wants. 33:50-51
  • If men must speak to Muhammad's wives they must speak from behind a curtain. And no one must ever marry one of his wives. 33:53
These are just nutty (now we know what Mohammad liked fair, young virgins with wide eyes):
  • The single-minded slaves of Allah will enjoy a Garden filled with lovely-eyed virgins. 37:40-48
  • Allah will reward faithful Muslims after they die with "fair ones with wide, lovely eyes." 44:54
  • Those in the Garden will be attended by immortal youths with wide, lovely eyes. 56:17-23
Most of us are aware of this one:
  • Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31
But not everybody is aware of this one:
  • Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34
Wife beating

The last verse mentioned is responsible for some horrific domestic violence, so let's examine further with the full translation:

YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

For those doubters, I bolded the key parts. If you fear disloyalty, desertion or rebellion...beat your wives (of course after admonishing them and not sleeping with them). Now, in Yusuf Ali's version, the word "lightly" is added, but this was added for palatability not because the word is actually there. In the video at the top, you can see how "lightly" some are beaten.

In fact, the word in the Quran in 4:34 used for "beat" is "idreb". It is a conjugate of the word "daraba" which primarily means "to beat, strike, to hit" - Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, page 538.

Here is a Quranic verse in which "idreb" is used:

8:12 - ""Strike" off their heads, "strike" off the very tips of their fingers!"

Don't believe the Muslim apologists. In the next post, I'll go through what Mohammad actually thought when "revealing" the Quran.

Mohammad's pedophilia - Part 4

Other pedophilia examples

You see, Mohamed the pedophile liked the young girls: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17). Ah yes, and that is you can "thigh" an infant in many Muslim countries - thank you Mohammad:

Muhammad also had eyes for an infant girl, promising to marry her when she grows up. Ibn Ishaq places this event during the time of the Battle of Badr in 624 AD when Muhammad was roughly 54 years old. (Guillaume, pp. 310-312)

And so there is no Allah

Here's the main problem with "Mohammad was a victim of the times" excuse. Besides the fact that we demonstrated the excuse to be false (sex with 9 year olds was not customary), it also demonstrates the lack of a divine Allah. If there really were an omniscient, omnipotent being and a prophet named Mohammad, the duo would've created a religion for all times and Mohammad would've set an example for all times. A true divinely inspired prophet sets the custom not follows the custom. Mohammad's pedophilia justified pedophilia for ages and continues to justify it today. His example emboldened pedophiles in Muslim countries until this day. If Allah exists, he should be ashamed.

Mohammad's pedophilia - Part 3

Last typical Muslim responses to Aisha

5. It was customary to marry that young

Fact: There is no record in ancient times demonstrating that it was customary to marry as young as Aisha. Nor does any historical record show such an age disparity between a 51 year old man and his marriage to a six year old. Finally, and most importantly, it was not customary for a 54 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old (especially one that played with dolls).

Proof - let's take a look at other ancient cultures:

Ancient Greece and Rome

Around AD 530, and at least as far back as the reign of Augustus, the legal minimum age of marriage for girls was 12 and for boys 14, and Roman children of the aristocracy married youngest.

In Ancient Greece, "[t]hough the marriage of a girl to a man twenty years her elder was common, sexual relations between the very young and very old were a standard subject for mirth". However, marriage was not as early as in Rome, possibly at age 18 for girls, but also to men a decade older, but at least 25.

Middle Ages Europe
Women were marriageable right after puberty, marriage arrangements were made while they were in infancy; they were wed at the age of twelve or fourteen to men in their twenties and thirties. The arrangements were often loveless political unions, certainly abusive by contemporary standards and conducive of great gaps in learning and maturity between wives and husbands.

Ancient Jewish culture
"For Jewish women--as for women in antiquity generally--marriage was often entered into early. We do not have many inscriptions recording the age at which women were married, but the few who record it mention ages varying from 12 to 18 years. 15 was probably an average age for a girl to marry.

Footnote: See Horsley, New Documents 4 (1987)222-227, on age at marriage. He states that the few data we have seem to suggest a higher marriage age for Jewish than for pagan girls."

Ancient Egypt
...most Egyptian men were eager to follow the advice of the wisdom literature urging them to take a wife while still young so they could found a household and raise a family. Most men were married by the age of twenty to girls who might have been as young as fifteen. There was an age difference, but usually not more than two or three years.


So you see, you're instincts are right. It's unusual and sick to for a 54 year old man to have sex with a pre-pubescent 9 year old that is playing with dolls.

Next post...more examples of pedophilia in Islam.

Mohammad's pedophilia - Part 2

Common responses from Muslims on Aisha

1. Ages are wrong for any number of reasons usually that the Hadith are unreliable.

Fact: The Hadith I quoted are key to Islam and are considered part of the Sunnah accepted by all Muslims.

2. She was at puberty already

Fact: You read her own words - she was playing with dolls when she entered Mohammad's house as a bride. You can also see the narrator say that dolls were allowed only for girls before puberty

People matured at a faster rate in that region.

Fact: Average age for the first period is ~13 years, and it barely changes around the world. Also, puberty is a process taking 4 years on average, and a 9 year old wouldn't have the emotional maturity to handle it. It was rape for that reason. Mohamed should at least have waited until Aisha was done with puberty.

4. Aisha's parents agreed with her marrage

Fact: Her father objected:
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Next post typical objections to Muhammad's pedophile history

Sunday, October 21, 2007

Mohammad's pedophilia

This ended up taking a number of posts. Also, I've forgotten a Quran passage, which I have added below. This is from Sura 65 on rules for divorce. Notice below that you can divorce a woman who hasn't menstruated yet ("not had their courses"). Well, how can you divorce a prepubescent woman if you didn't marry a prepubescent woman in the first place? I think the reader can fill in the blanks.

65:4 And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

When you read about Mohammad's own pedophilia below, you'll understand why he made sure to have the above verse "revealed" to him.


Let's continue with Aisha. The key Hadith sections about Aisha because they are pretty clear (remember when you are reading that Mohammad was 51 when Aisha was 6):

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Pretty straightforward, right? From Aisha's own words, she was 6 when they married and 9 when they consummated the marriage. Child brides are one thing, but consummation at 9 years old is another.

Let's continue:

Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age

And in another Hadith we read.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

In the above hadith we read that Ayesha was swinging, something children do. Any other children's activities? Pay attention to what the interpreter wrote in the parenthesis. (She was a little girl, not yet at the age of puberty)

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

So, at the age of nine when the marriage was consummated, she was still playing with dolls and not yet at puberty.

In the next post I will discuss common responses from Muslims over the issue of Aisha and why they are false

Where to start

Culture of ignorance

Where to start in your discussion is important. Muslims do not see any flaws in their faith, so you have to understand where they could be most receptive and/or most impressed. The first filter, receptivity, is important because Muslims run from challenging discussion faster than any other group I've seen. Most Muslims would rather live with a lie than confront any illogic in their faith. The culture is very different than other faiths and the root is in the Quran:

YUSUFALI: Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell:-
PICKTHAL: He hath already revealed unto you in the Scripture that, when ye hear the revelations of Allah rejected and derided, (ye) sit not with them (who disbelieve and mock) until they engage in some other conversation. Lo! in that case (if ye stayed) ye would be like unto them. Lo! Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers, all together, into hell;
SHAKIR: And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.

Above you can read three translations of 4:140 - they all say the same thing. Don't talk to those who reject or deride the Quran. It is in the culture to run from conversations that challenge the Islam. Why? Well, the Quran answers that too with circular reasoning:

YUSUFALI: Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
PICKTHAL: Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.
SHAKIR: Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

You see there are no discrepancies because the Quran says so. So not only must you not speak with those that challenge the Quran, but you shouldn't even ask the questions yourselves:

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Ask not of things which, if they were made unto you, would trouble you; but if ye ask of them when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made known unto you. Allah pardoneth this, for Allah is Forgiving, Clement.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.

YUSUFALI: Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
PICKTHAL: A folk before you asked (for such disclosures) and then disbelieved therein.
SHAKIR: A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.

Emphasis above is mine again. There are more passages like those above, but I believe that the message is already clear - remain in ignorance or risk losing your faith.

Quran barely read and Arabic myopia

Now, most Muslims have not read much of the Quran in their native language even if they speak Arabic so they won't run from conversation because of the above quotes. They will run because the culture has already been created by those quotes. Funny, in fact, that if you don't want them to run - be as direct in your rejection as possible.

Many of those that have read the Quran, are non-native speakers following this doctrine from Mohammad:

"Verily the one who recites the Qur'an beautifully, smoothly, and precisely, he will be in the company of the noble and obedient angels. And as for the one who recites with difficulty, stammering or stumbling through its verses (because he doesn't know how to read it but is trying to), then he will have TWICE that reward."

However, even if they memorize the Quran, they usually do it in Arabic. On a side note, it is important to remember why - that the Quran places Arabic above all languages:

YUSUFALI: We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.
PICKTHAL: And We know well that they say: Only a man teacheth him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish, and this is clear Arabic speech.
SHAKIR: And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, and this is clear Arabic tongue.

The Quran goes on further with a little racism:

YUSUFALI: Had We revealed it to any of the non-Arabs,
PICKTHAL: And if We had revealed it unto one of any other nation than the Arabs,
SHAKIR: And if we had revealed it to any of the foreigners

YUSUFALI: And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.
PICKTHAL: And he had read it unto them, they would not have believed in it.
SHAKIR: So that he should have recited it to them, they would not have believed

So...back to the point...where to start

When a Muslim starts telling me about the "scientific miracles" in the Quran, I challenge them to send me a single one. Simultaneously, I ask them to explain a few of the top mathematical, historical and scientific errors.

With female Muslims, especially those with kids, I usually ask them if they're ok with the sometimes violent sexism or with Mohammad's pedophilia. This tactic sometimes works with men, but you'll be surprised at how many men are ok with these issues. More on that later.

There are many other passages of the Quran or Hadith that would have most of us either laughing or in horror, but I promise you that many of them will have little effect on the average Muslim. These include passages of torture, murder, unscientific nonsense, racism, Antisemitism, etc.

In the next post, I'll start with key quotes from the Hadith on Mohammad's pedophilia. Although this is not in the Quran (except for some strange verses about young boys and wide-eyed girls in heaven), it helps to go here quickly because it often comes up right away. Again, though, I don't recommend this issue as a starting point for all discussions.

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

Read the Koran

Why read the Koran

One of the benefits of an Islamic debate is that the goal is so easy. The claim of perfection for Islam means that we only need to find one mistake to bring the whole thing down. However,it helps to read the Koran first in order to debate.

While cutting and pasting from one of the websites that point out Koran errors is good enough, it helps to know what you are talking about. Don't make the mistake that Muslims make. They will send you a link or just cut and paste without even reading the words. I've embarrassed quite a few Muslims by pointing out that their link left the key problem unsolved although their triumphant Muslim author claimed to have solved it all. On a side note...I am not surprised by the false claims because, as you'll see in my last post on Dishonesty, Muslims have no problems with lying.

So...the best source I've found online for Koran translations is the USC site. Scroll down to the chapters. They also have an index and a search. You can ignore the logically flawed Dawaa (Muslim evangelism) about science and the Koran from a single point of view - guess the point of view? Overall, however, it's a great resource for discussing the Koran because it has three translations: Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, and Shakir.

You don't have to know Arabic

Access to multiple translations is key. It is very important because, as I discussed in my Fallacies post, one of the first things you'll hear from cornered Muslims is that only native Arabic speakers can discuss the Koran. As I've said before, this is an appeal to authority and nothing more. There are good translations available. If worse comes to worse, you can use some of the translator sites such as Google's: Unfortunately, translation sites do not take into account some of the changes in word use from 1400 years ago until today.

Oh, and while we're talking about translations - Islam means submission (not peace). This attempt to change meanings is one of the great cons by modern Muslims over the Western world.

Again, read the much as you can stomach, then read some more. Don't worry, you won't convert :) because the the Koran itself will make that impossible with violent, misogynistic, scientifically and historically inaccurate stories.

The Hadith

"The general practices of Islam, or the Sunnah, come primarily from the hadiths ("reports") about Muhammad's life, which were passed down orally until codified in the eighth century AD, some hundred years after Muhammad's death. The hadiths comprise the most important body of Islamic texts after the Quran; they are basically a collection of anecdotes about Muhammad's life believed to have originated with those who knew him personally. There are thousands upon thousands of hadiths, some running to multiple pages, some barely a few lines in length."
Above paraphrased from

It's not necessary to read the Hadith because there is so much nonsense and too much to read. Simultaneously, don't be afraid of discussing the Hadith because of your lack of knowledge. The Hadith can be even more embarrassing for the Muslim than the Koran, and can help prove some of the errors in the Koran. Most of the key passages are detailed in sites that expose Islam's flaws. Here are some of those sites (remember this list because you may return to these sites again and again): - my favorite as this one was started by an ex-Muslim, Ali Sina -line by line review of the Koran, showing contradictions, scientific problems, cruelty,... - a nice intro to Islam ,
Christian sites with a huge amount of analysis. Great reference for detailed analysis.


The Koran has an interesting history. When talking to Muslims, you will hear that Mohamed was illiterate, and simply repeated his revelations to others who wrote them down. In fact, Qu'ran means "recitation." What really happened?

Well, one thing we know. The "one and only" Koran was actually many documents until years after Mohamed's death in 632. It wasn't until the reign of Uthman from 644 to 656 that the Koran was unified and completed in one text. In fact, Uthman's work to unify the documents was considered controversial with some thinking that he tampered with the narrative. Obvious question - how can there be many versions of a document form a god? Similar question - how can today's Koran be "the one and only" if it that is historically false?


More from

"Those Westerners who manage to pick up a translation of the Quran are often left bewildered as to its meaning thanks to ignorance of a critically important principle of Quranic interpretation known as "abrogation." The principle of abrogation -- al-naskh wa al-mansukh (the abrogating and the abrogated) -- directs that verses revealed later in Muhammad's career "abrogate" -- i.e., cancel and replace -- earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Thus, passages revealed later in Muhammad's career, in Medina, overrule passages revealed earlier, in Mecca. The Quran itself lays out the principle of abrogation:

2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?
It seems that 2:106 was revealed in response to skepticism directed at Muhammad that Allah's revelations were not entirely consistent over time. Muhammad's rebuttal was that "Allah is able to do all things" -- even change his mind. To confuse matters further, though the Quran was revealed to Muhammad sequentially over some twenty years' time, it was not compiled in chronological order. When the Quran was finally collated into book form under Caliph Uthman, the suras were ordered from longest to shortest with no connection whatever to the order in which they were revealed or to their thematic content. In order to find out what the Quran says on a given topic, it is necessary to examine the other Islamic sources that give clues as to when in Muhammad's lifetime the revelations occurred. Upon such examination, one discovers that the Meccan suras, revealed at a time when the Muslims were vulnerable, are generally benign; the later Medinan suras, revealed after Muhammad had made himself the head of an army, are bellicose."

Now, in my discussions with Muslims, abrogation has never come up. I believe this is because it would be a great way to demonstrate the lack of divine within the Koran. It could also be that most Muslims just believe without thinking. Don't underestimate the power of brainwashing.


Read as much of the Koran as you can to be prepare for your discussions. The Koran was not made unique until it was collated years after Mohamed's death. Also, many devout believers at the time accused Uthman of tampering with the sacred book. How can a divine book have controversy about its authenticity?'s just a book.

Next post...let's get started errors and contradictions

Friday, October 5, 2007


Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

For some reason, Muslims have less of a problem with dishonesty than others I've debated. Sometimes, they outright lie. When called on it, they don't even react offended and just try again!

A common lie is just to ignore what you said in the previous message, or, better yet, what they may have said themselves. It's as if they don't think you'll save every message through your inbox. I've spent a lot of time cutting and pasting old messages just to remind Muslims of things I said or they've said. So - remember - save every message!

Always call Muslims out on the lying or use of fallacies as a defense. Never let them get away with it. Remind them that the worst form of lying is lying to oneself. This gets to the heart of the matter. If Muslims have to resort to lying to make their point - what does that say about Islam? If Islam is the "one, true religion," shouldn't defending it be easy?

It's hard to show you examples of lying from my messages with Muslims because you would have to see long message histories. However, there are some great examples from the public:

1. Denmark's most famous Imam, Ahmed Abdel Rahman Abu Laban, forged cartoons to push a political agenda. Sadly, this disclosure had no affect on the rampaging Muslim world as we all know. This was a religious leader lying. Read here, here, and here. One more.

2. Watch a short documentary here about Pallywood - just scroll to the bottom for the link. Pallywood is a phrase used to refer to stage news events by Palestinian and other cameramen to portray Israel in an unfavorable light.

3. An long list of Fauxtography links. Fauxtography is a key Muslim method of news reporting where real photos are purposefully mislabeled and/or photoshop is applied to falsely create intended drama around a fabricated story. One of my favorites is the one where an old, unused ambulance is falsely portrayed as the victim of an Israeli attack.


Why Muslims lie is an interesting question. I admit to knowing enough on the subject to explain the causes, but not enough to have a complete understanding. I may update this page as I learn more.

Let's start with lies that are sanctified in the Hadith:
Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them). (Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05; see also Sahih al-Bukhari 3.857)

So this Hadith is saying that you can lie to
1. achieve success in war
2. to bring about peace
3. to help a husband and wife reconcile.
You can also 4. lie to save one's life:
"The idolators seized Ammar, and they let him not go until he had abused Mahomet and spoken well of their gods. He then repaired to the Prophet, who asked of him what had happened." - "Evil, oh Prophet of the Lord! I was not let go until I had abused thee, and spoken well of their gods." - "But how," replied Mahomet, "dost thou find thine own heart?" - "Secure and steadfast in the faith." - "Then," said Mahomet, "if they repeat the same, do thou too repeat the same." Ibid. Mahomet also said that Ammar's lie was better than Abu Jahl's truth.

What else?

Taqqiyah is one reason (or the key reason) lying goes further. Dr. Walid writes, " Al-Taqiyah. Al-Taqiyah, from the verb Ittaqu, means linguistically dodge the threat. Politically it means simulate whatever status you need in order to win the war against the enemy ..." This is from a Muslim site:

"Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings,
opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or
later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury."

One more definition:

"A one-word translation would be”Dissimulation.” In Arabic the translation would be “hypocrisy in the pursuit of a greater purpose. And ……… "

I think you get the picture.

The definition of Taqqiyah gives liars enough leeway to take it as far as they want (how do you define fear of mental injury or pursuit of a greater purpose?). Moreover, it leads to a cultural mindset about lying and dishonesty.

There is a particularly Shia doctrine of Kithman, which is related to is a cut and paste:

Kithman is a command to deliberately conceal one’s beliefs. It is a particular form of lying primarily practiced by the minority Shia’ Muslims. This doctrine is articulated by Imam Jafar Sadiq, the sixth Imam of Shia’ Islam:

One, who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us.

You belong to a religion that whosoever conceals it, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him.

Mohamed (Mohammad) helped the dishonesty culture by setting an example. I gave an example above where he approved of lying about faith. Here's another from the Hadith:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." ... (Sahih al-Bukhari 5.369, cf. the article on Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf for further details)

Here's another story that shows lying for financial benefit:

After the conquest of the city of Khaybar by the Muslims, the Prophet was approached by Hajaj Ibn `Aalat and told: "O Prophet of Allah: I have in Mecca some excess wealth and some relatives, and I would like to have them back; am I excused if I bad-mouth you to escape persecution?" The Prophet excused him and said: "Say whatever you have to say."

This comment by Al-Ghazali is a great summary:
Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

Note that Al-Ghazali is one of the most famous and respected Muslim theologians of all time.

Now my 4 word summary: means to an end.

The culture of dishonesty and lying is so ingrained that Muslims lie to themselves without even thinking twice. The obvious question for a believer would be "if I'm lying in order to defend Islam logically, does that mean that Islam is illogical on its own?"

Here are some great sources that go through this issue in better detail (although there is the unfortunate Christian counterpoint as well). the Koran


Here's a nice quote from Muhammad:

If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better."
Sahih Bukhari 9:89:26

Wednesday, October 3, 2007


Muslims, when faced with errors in the Koran or problems with the Hadith, will often resort to logical fallacies or outright lying when debating. Don't be afraid to call them on that. There is no need for "playing nice" - just consistently be honest and direct.

Below are some of the fallacies (this is an incomplete list). A complete list of fallacies can be found here, here and here. The first one is a nice summary, with the others offering more detail. Here is a basic list (I have bolded the most common fallacies in my Muslim discussions):

Hasty generalization
Missing the point
Post hoc (also called false cause)
Slippery slope
Weak analogy
Appeal to authority
Ad populum
Ad hominem and tu quoque
Appeal to pity
Appeal to ignorance
Straw man
Red herring
False dichotomy
Begging the question
Circular reasoning
Non sequitir

Ad hominem and tu quoque
This is the most common fallacy used by Muslims . It
is basically throwing away someone's argument because of some issue with the person or person's group. Usually, they switch the attack to Christianity or Judaism, comparing the Bible to the Koran, because they think I'm Christian or Jewish. Since I am an atheist, it doesn't work. Here are some direct quotes:

"Look in you own Bible before you criticize the Quran"

"the Koran was sent down as the last and only non-man-edited/twisted Holy Book that is still in its original language without any different versions today; that is why there are so many different contradictory versions of the Bible"

"You tell me about the holes in my book first of find them, secondly tell me am I to leave a book I find solid to believe in a book where the teachers of the faith commited adultry, incest and god even had them kill down to the animals? Tell me what did the animals do to god?"

"The Bible has more atrocities than Holy Quran! Look at YOURSELF!!"

Do not be part of the sheep that interprets this as..."

Circular reasoning
This has got to be the second most common fallacy used with Muslims. Here is a great example:

This does NOT mean that anyone is judged unfairly- for justice is one of the main pillars in Islam."

Appeal to authority
This is probably the third most common fallacy. Here's an example:

these questions which you asked are basically what the orientalists and jews and christians have used for centuries and they have been dealt with by the scholars of islam in the past."

A related defense mechanism by Muslims is the "you have to know Arabic" to debate the Koran. This is an attempt at "Appeal to authority" because, after all, who knows Arabic well enough to discuss Islam but the Islamic scholars themselves! This defense, of course, fails because there are many good translations out there. A USC website has the three leading translations all in one place, line by line. When all three say the same thing - well then... Also, there are ex-Muslim websites out there, FaithFreedom.Org being a key one. In these websites, you will find details from one who can read and understand Arabic. It's also interesting that Muslims are expected to learn and memorize the Koran cover to cover, even if they don't speak Arabic. Hmmm, what does that say?

Begging the question

This is similar to circular reasoning, and used quite often. Basically, it is asserting the conclusion, hence "begging the question" of "where's the proof?" When discussing Mohamed's pedophilia, you will often hear things like

The Qur'an is flawless. It is the literal word of Allah and therefore can contain no mistakes."

" What I mean when I say that is that things did not form without a PURPOSE. Humans are too precious & brilliant to turn into dust after death. "

"this pedophelia [Mohamed having sex with a 9 year old] you are talking about is something that only by today's standard is wrong, in the time of the prophet it was common practice. "

Begging the question is often used in a very particular way when all has failed for the Muslim. An argument you will often hear is something similar to "any inability to answer your arguments about Islam are not the faults of Islam but mine as an imperfect being. Islam is perfect." Here's a direct quote:

"...expect me to know everything like a perfect academic scholar of Islam. I'm not. They don't exist. Only the Prophet (pbuh) was ever the perfect muslim. "

You see, we get a similar defense to the language defense. It is an attempt to avoid all criticism because nobody could defend Islam perfectly except Mohamed, and, well, he's dead.

Next post...Dishonesty

Basic rules of discussing Islam with a Muslim

Discussing Islam with a Muslim is like going through the Five Stages of Grief over and over:

Five Stages Of Grief.
1. Denial and Isolation.
2. Anger.
3. Bargaining.
4. Depression.
5. Acceptance

The one caveat is you rarely get past 3. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. No matter how many Islamic errors and contradictions you show a Muslim, they will either deny the facts, get angry at you for pointing them out or start lying and bargaining their way through it in hopes that everything will go away. They lying can go on a long time, and I've found a common theme of dishonesty when arguing religion with a Muslim.

With about 75% of them, I've found that they run away when faced with the facts. The pattern is repeatable. They will initially argue back using many logical fallacies. Once you point out the issues clearly a second time or third time, they will start name calling and halt discussion simultaneously.

I've had one Muslim come to terms with the facts and admit that there's an issue. However, in the next message, his family forced him to cut off all contact with the stranger that proves Allah wrong.

Next post...the fallacies.